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This is the HVAC school podcast, the podcast that reminds you of all the things you might have forgotten about the HVAC our industry, or reminds you of some things you forgot to know. In the first place, I am Brian and today on the podcast, I'm talking with my service manager, service manager of kalo services, the company that I own and started about ductless maintenance, so we're gon na go over kind of step by step what we do, you're, probably Gon na hear some things that you may not agree with, and I'm open to hearing your feedback on things that you do in addition to things that you don't like, that we do, and so I'll just put it right out there in the front you can reach Me at Brian B, rya n at HVAC, our school comm, that's Brian, at HVAC, our school comm Brian, is with a why our is for radical or refrigeration, and you can also find out all of all our daily tech tips and all of our resources and podcasts And all that stuff you can find at HVAC our school comm. I try to put out something daily. Sometimes I miss a day here or there, and actually I'm currently when you're hearing this I'm on a vacation right now, but I'm still producing content, but in and out there in the world, and so here we go.

This is actually gon na be a two-part series, but this is part one ductless maintenance with Jessie Clarabel, alright. So I'm talking with Jessie, who is the service manager of our company chalo services and we're gon na talk today about ductless maintenance. We do a lot of work in the villages which is a retirement community, northwest of Orlando and in that community there's a big demand for ductless systems, primarily for sunrooms, but then also there's some other applications as well. That we've installed them in so because of that we've done a lot of installations.

We go back in the archives, you'll find a ductless installation episode and then this episode we're going to focus on ductless maintenance, because we do a boatload of ductless maintenance and there are some unique things that are specific to ductless. First of all, if you're gon na do a good ductless maintenance, it's probably gon na take a little longer than a typical AC. Maintenance is what we found. So we've gotten a lot of questions about ductless maintenance and so we're just gon na go through step by step things that we look for and things that we do and how we handle ductless maintenance.

So, first off thanks for being willing to sit down out of your busy schedule, Jesse, absolutely I'm glad to be here today. I hope we cover a lot of ICH use that we as a company, have found out and dealt with over the years, because we do so many of these. You have to come up with a solution to all of those problems. Otherwise, it's a reoccurring issue, whereas if you don't do a lot of these maintenances or you're going to be doing a lot of these maintenances for the next couple of years, having this information that we're gon na go over today could really benefit you guys, so hopefully It does if it doesn't just enjoy listening yeah.

So, let's start with ductless systems, we primarily install heat pumps, so they have to be running both cooling and heating seasons, and so we recommend to our customers that they do it twice a year: maintenance like any other system, but the one thing that we find with Ductless systems is that they do require a lot of cleaning like more cleaning than a typical unit. So, let's start with the basics of the air filter. Obviously most of us know this, but what's the practice there, the air filter, it's a little plastic filter. It's a washable filter.

Honestly, they don't catch a lot of the finer particles of dust, so they tend to get some bigger stuff, so they don't get dirty as quickly as you would expect. So every couple of months is when they need to be cleaned out to three months and at that point they do have a coating on it. So you just want to wash them out with the hose or utility sink or I've had a couple customers who just vacuumed them off again: they're, not high Merv, so they don't catch a lot of the smaller particles. So that's pretty much all.

It is with the filters how they should be cleaned, so just like a lot of times in mine, cuz, I've had duck low systems for the last several years. When I maintain mine, I just take them into the kitchen sink with the sprayer, just just spray them off and let them dry and reinstall them. What do you generally suggest to customers yeah? I suggest either utility sink or the hose. That's my favorite thing with no cleaners.

So that's the big thing I stress, because you can see they're customers that use bleach or other chemicals that tend to break down the film. That's on it and then dust starts to get stuck inside of it kind of like a hogs hair filter. If you will where's the coating, you just spray it off with the hose and everything comes off really cleanly yeah, there's not really anything necessary to do advance. I've heard some people say put it in the dishwasher, don't think I would probably recommend that I mean unless the manufacturer's information says that it doesn't not right, which I haven't seen that, but unless someone saw that I wouldn't recommend it because again what I tend to See with them is that the actual filter itself starts to break down or starts to tear or you just the integrity of the actual fibers begin to break down a little bit, and you just don't need to do anything fancy with that just and take it out.

Wash it which I know is fairly obvious, but just to reinforce that the other thing I would add to that is a lot of times. Customers will say well. Do I need to let it dry first, no, you can spray it off shake it out. Put it back in it's fine, the air is gon na pull it in anything that drips gon na fall on that evap coil into the drain pan.

So it's not a big deal on those filters, though, just for you and your technicians and the homeowners if you're, like smacking them on concrete trying to get every last little droplet off, you do run the risk of actually breaking the frame. There's a little plastic frame on the outer edges. So don't do that obviously a lot of cases. I would actually take him outside if I was gon na wash them out with a hose as part of a maintenance, because when you're dealing with ductless, you generally have a regular unitary system on the house as well, so I've just kind of like held them over The condenser of the main unit in the house and just kind of held it there and let it blow off some of the moisture, and the point is just so: it's not gon na drip on anything because a little bit of moisture left on it's not gon Na hurt anything I mean there are some people who swear by them needing to be dry, but I don't see any real good reason why the only thing that I try to dry them off enough for is so when I bring them back in you, don't get A drip drip drip trail.

That's the only reason I even care about drying them off at all all right, so the next thing is blower wheels and I put blower wheels even before of a protocol because of how often that becomes an issue on ductless. So, let's go through the process, what you recommend on blower wheels and not just how to clean it, but what the recommended schedule is of cleaning blower wheels. So this is definitely one of the bigger challenges that we have come across so years ago. We started installing 10 20 30 40 50 of these a year, and lo and behold we do the maintenance on those before we were doing this quantity of them.

During our regular preventative maintenance, we would pull and clean the blower wheel as needed. What we found is that that's very time-consuming you have to train every individual technician on how to do that. It's not like a normal blower wheel. It's not just two screws slides out unplug the power go into the blower motor.

It's not like that's more involved! So a huge thing we found is one its extensive labor and what costs a company a lot of money is man-hours. We're spending all this man-hours on the work that we're performing, which is great quality work, but you're not getting paid for it. You're not factoring that into a normal maintenance that should take from 45 minutes to an hour and a half. It gives keep in mind at that time.

We were searching $ 79 for our standard maintenance and, if you're gon na be there for two hours, you're gon na lose your rear end correct. Now we have a price for a blower pulling clean now, a challenge that we face is now. We have all these customers that are not educated on a ductless maintenance and to pay an additional $ 150 $ 160, whatever it may be, to spend an extra hour to an hour and a half to remove and clean the blower wheel can be problematic. You literally have to educate your technicians, the guys in the field on how to appropriately educate the customer, so that way they understand the additional labor and cost it is for you, as a company, to be able to provide the appropriate service and preventative maintenance on that System yeah, absolutely so, let's talk through on the actual, removing and cleaning of a blower wheel and most the systems we have installed are either carrier or Mitsubishi we're starting to do more carrier.

Now carriers talked about a new model that they're gon na have just two screws. You can pull the whole blower assembly out. It is actually out now so they're performance series, it's actually on their new models that are in their warehouses right now. So I'm excited about that.

It's gon na make the process of removing and cleaning that blower wheel much easier. So I guess the first thing to mention is why it happens, which we don't always know exactly why? But you have the these long blower wheels that have very, very small cups in them, and so anything that gets in them really reduces the airflow, and they also tend to build up an electrostatic charge. It seems like what we've seen in the past is, if you ever have a case where the penetration through the wall is not completely perfectly hermetically sealed and you're able to draw in moisture through the back of the unit. That tends to make it worse, but it has a lot to do with the space how the customer operates the space the blower wheels because they're not metallic, they do build up like a static charge and they just kind of catch everything that makes it through yeah.

When they're, obviously the blower wheel, the more hours the system runs, the dirty it's gon na get the higher the speed that the blower runs, not necessarily it's not necessarily the CFM. Then it moves, because I have a lot of customers that actually put it in that quiet or low mode, and it seems like the temperature split across the coil is now colder, which creates a little bit more of a dew point on that wheel, which can actually Cause it to get dirtier, I'm not sure exactly how that works out. But I went to one last week where there was probably a one-inch hole in the drywall going up into the attic right above the unit kind of tucked in there. He had previously had some electrical coming down and it had only been installed a year and this thing was bad.

It was just hardly moving any air. So then, at that point you have to sit down and take five ten minutes to educate the customer on the process. Why it's doing this? How often this has to be done? The additional labor involved and then moved forward from there and seal up the whole right. That's a no-brainer right so mostly, oh sorry, gosh, I started asking to say stupid thing: Jesse, jeez, yeah.

He gets kind of judging on me. Sometimes I don't know where he gets yeah, so you obviously want to seal up that hole. So we took care of that before we sat down and had the conversation as far as what's causing this the additional labor involved and how often doesn't need to be done just like changing a filter when it gets dirty. That's the true answer to that question.

When it actually starts to cause any issue with the operation of the system, that's the point of what she needs to be done and for ductless systems. It's a thing. That's missed often, and I don't know about other markets in our market. We got a lot of junk in the air.

We've got very high, late and load, so it may be that another place is ductless, don't build up as much on the blower wheel, but in our market in Florida it's really bad, it's pretty extreme, which is why I mention it first. So you have the option of pulling and cleaning the blower, and so let's talk through on a Mitsubishi system, basically what you do and about how long it takes for you and Jessie's done a lot of these. So obviously it's easier for him than most people. Yes, so I've done a lot of ductless preventative maintenance as well as removing and cleaning the blower wheel so on the Mitsubishi product.

Obviously you take off the top plate. That's the cover for the filters, remove the filters. One thing I've seen a lot of times. Is you have four clips in the back so on the upper back portion that the front plate actually clips in so you're gon na remove that filter door cover that just pulls out? Remove the two filters you'll neither have two or three screws on the lower portion.

So take those out, then that bottom part just kind of pops out and here the whole process. What we're doing right now is actually removing that front cover on the unit. What I've seen is a lot of times the units are so close to the ceiling that you can't actually get your hand back on top of the unit to push down on the tabs and actually remove that front plate. So why I remove that front cover and the filters is, you can actually stick your hand up through the front where the coil is and push down on that body and release those four latches on the back hand side, because if there's an inch or two you Can't actually reach back in there and push down where you need to on those tabs.

That's a cool little trick that I mean in general. You don't want them that close to the ceiling, but there are some applications in some cases, you're going on headers that are over windows and things, and so it's just you got to get it a little tighter to the ceiling. But I get what you're saying, though so you're just reaching up to the inside and kind of almost flexing the body a little bit in order to get those clips to release yeah, usually you'll have one on the right one on the left. Usually you can get your hand from the outside no problem, but then they have two on the inner portion.

So you really have to have your arm all the way up there close to your elbow. So then you need three inches of clearance and you don't have that every unit anyways pull that off. Then at that point, you're gon na have three screws, and here we're referring to the Mitsubishi product right now they have a lot of Units out there again. The carriers are gon na be easier because they got the four bolts on the bottom and that whole thing just slides right out, so it's actually a way easier process.

But as far as the Mitsubishi goes - and this is pretty much across the board, though they're all very similar to this process other than the carrier is now easier. So then at that point, you've got three screws on the left-hand side. Two of them are right there by the blower bearing and then there's one up that kind of holds the coil in place now. At this point, all you're looking at is the coil, the blower wheel and then the back plastic section of the system itself.

So then you'll slowly turn the blower wheel itself and then there's gon na be a slot in the blower wheel itself, where there's actually the set screw. So it's enough spaces in a lot of cases. It's almost like there's a vein missing a little bit. Then that's where you can get into get that set screw correct.

So then you just loosen that up biggest thing. I'd say on that front is don't loosen up too much. You just have to loosen up two turns, maybe that's all you need, and then you have the screws removed on the left-hand side. You're gon na lift the coil portion up, remove the bearing hold the blower wheel in the center of it kind of lift the coil up and slide it towards yourself down and to the left and it'll slide right off the blower shaft.

But it takes kind of flexing that coil, like a lot of guys, end up disassembling a lot more than this, and in some cases the manufacturers instructions even show that, but this is much easier than disassembling everything you have to be gentle with it. Obviously, you got to know what you're doing, but it saves a lot of time. Testo celebrating 60 years of high quality instrumentation with their best-in-class fall combustion. Analyzer promotion there's never been a better time to get a high quality test.

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I'm at that point gives you complete access to the drain, pan itself to the drain tube going out and you're really able to fully clean that out appropriately. Because, if you don't do this, then you have a lot of gunk and stuff that can stay in there and it's a very small drain pan on these systems. So now we got the blower out. In our right hand, you're gon na take your left hand kind of position.

The coil back in the original place again you're only moving this an inch or two out to give it enough room for that blower wheel to come out. So then I take everything outside you got the veins. You got the front cover, you got the filter, you got the blower wheel. All of that goes outside, depending on how dirty the blower wheel is.

You may spray everything down with some cleaner and let it sit for a minute or two and then just hose all of that down once you've hosed everything off you're gon na just bring it back inside again. You want to dry these off enough, where it's not dripping everywhere, especially the blower wheel, because it will fling water all over the place if it's silver, correct still. What I found is putting it over the central air-conditioning system. That's a great idea! If you have a little blower on your truck, that's a good idea, but there's gon na be a little bit of moisture on that wheel.

When you kick it on for the first time where it slings a little bit of water out a couple droplets, nothing significant! So that's not like to be unexpected, so they have their copy of the Mona Lisa right in front of it. Then you would want to take someone correct and if you're doing this over carpet for everyone for gosh, goodness darn, it use a drop cloth. There is no way you're going to be able to do this process without getting something on the floor. So if it's not concrete, if it's not tile, if it's not painted concrete use, a drop cloth carpet, those sort of things wood floors use a drop cloth even on the concrete it's easier if you use a five by five drop cloth and just roll it up On the end, just makes your life so easy.

Also, if you drop a screw driver with a drop cloth, it's a little bit of protection from maybe scratching the paint on the floor. If it is concrete, so use a drop cloth, then on the evaporator coil itself. So you've done everything on the outside you've done the covers you've done the veins you've done the drain. Pan you've done the blower wheel all outside, but you still have that of a protocol inside.

So when do you do that? And what do you do with that? So, the time that I would recommend doing, that is, after you've cleaned the blower wheel, clean the housing. You got it all, leaning up against the house, you just let it drip dry a little bit. You could bring it in right away, but you've got to spend some time cleaning the inside, so just let it drip to lean it up against the house after you've cleaned these all off. I don't like putting like in dirt or grass, because that's gon na get on it, but then you have to be very aware not to put it on like concrete, where it could scratch the face of it, because there's kind of a shine to the front of It so you want to set it down in such a way where it's not gon na roll.

It's not gon na get scratched, so just be conscious of that, then. At that point, you're gon na come in spray bottle is what I use pump sprayers, okay pump. Sprayer obviously produces more water than a spray bottle, but the downside is, is you sometimes have a hard time managing the water? I mean my experience has been with a lot of technicians pump sprayers. They leak the tips leaked, it doesn't shut off all the different connectors leak and again they shouldn't.

But I've seen this a lot. I had to use one of my Tech's spray bottles the other day to clean up a case in a grocery store that I was working on. It's like I'm trying to manage the water leaking all over the place while I'm doing it. So that's where's! If you can use a spray bottle, if you don't need that velocity of water, you're gon na have a better control over the cleaner of water, whatever you're using that's true, and because of that, let's say use a spray bottle.

I mean the coil is so small. The amount of water and cleaner that you need is so insignificant, just use a spray bottle and the other thing about ductless coil says they also tend to be very thin. The fin spacing is super tight. I was gon na say that the fin spacing actually seems to be a little bit wider.

Does it yeah within a typical of a particular mm-hmm? It's cuz. They don't want that static. I mean you look at a mom more than I do. Maybe it's cuz the coils, so small and it looks like a huge gap.

Maybe we need to take a couple and then take a look at this finding, but anyway they always seem Center to me, but journalist they're, very thin, the actual depth of the coil, because the tubes are very small tubes. Yes, so because of that, you don't need to necessarily have a huge amount of pressure in order to get it cleaned from there. What are you using brushes rags? Anything at this point? You have the blowout. You got the drain pan down.

You have full access to the whole housing underneath the evaporator coil and then the whole top of the evaporator coil, like everything is exposed at this point, what I found is, even though those filters aren't like a high Merv. It catches all the big stuff. So you really don't get stuff, that's compacted in the coil like you would see on a normal residential home where they didn't use a filter. Rarely do you see that what I tend to see is just a little bit of surface dust, maybe a little growth here.

They're just mildew on it, nothing significant, though, if it's not significant. What I do is just spray everything down so you're gon na spray, the face of the coil, that's what's facing you and then you're gon na, take your spray bottle and go underneath and actually spray. The whole entire housing and then the underside of the evaporator coil. This depends if it's not too bad, there's just a little bit on it.

I'm just gon na take my rack. First, I'm just gon na wipe off the front face of the coil. Then I'm gon na go up underneath and wipe the evaporator coil. Now this is very gently with the grain, so you're not going left to right, you're going up and down with the grain again.

This is just to get little stuff off now, if it's worse and it seems like there's more on it, I like a little hand broom. It works great, sweep it with the grain, it works good and then, at the end, just wipe they're all from the rag. But I haven't had any issues as far as cleaning the evaporator coils. It's I've never had an issue yeah and it sounds like so a lot of people here that I call man you got to get pressure in there whatever, but we're talking very practically hearing and getting the surface stuff off.

Apparently all Jesse's goals are made with wood. So you go with the grain of the wood on the coil. That was a little joke. I got it yeah yeah, so the types of cleaners that you use, though, need to be cleaners that are very mild.

We're talking about green type, cleaners, cleaners that don't have any are gon na add VOCs to the airman. Of course, al cleaners are gon na, add some VOCs to the air, but you want non toxic cleaners, cleaners generally, they don't use things like triclosan or other types of chemicals that could react and give the customer reaction or anything that could be a corrosive, no brightening Cleaners, nothing like that on an evaporator coil, so just mild mild stuff. So what I would recommend using is a Microban. You don't need, sell frenzy VAT coil! You don't need that.

It's just not necessary, and this is again speaking from years of experience. It's not necessary! So why do it and what we use is we use micro man makes a product called botannical micro van, so it's actually a plant based cleaner. It doesn't have any warnings on it or anything if we've used it for years and again, small doses, you know I like dousing the thing in it you're just using it enough to get it clean anything you're putting in because manufacturers not kind of hedging here, a Little bit cuz manufacturers gripe about putting anything on coils right, they're gon na get grouchy when you put anything on anything. So if you're in doubt use water, that's fine, even of course even water has a little bit of chlorine in it.

So there's something there. In fact, it's funny years ago we had a customer who kept having odor complaints and he called Mitsubishi tech support and they told him to spray bleach on his evaporator coil. Oh, my goodness, Mitsubishi tech support told him to spring bleach and I called him I'm like what gives like just a little bit. Every now and again won't hurt, and I was thinking okay well.

I guess that gives me license to use a coil cleaners as ID, but anyway we use botanical microbe and we buy it from a company called John Don in bulk and we've had no issues with it at all and we actually started using it because we used A antimicrobial product that had try close and some people call it trickle'san, and we had a customer who claimed that she had an allergic reaction to it and had an entire big deal about it. So he started using a fully botanical product that has no warnings on it when we're working on evaporator coils unless we're removing them. So if we're removing it of a protocol, this is true of unitary or anything. Then we could use maybe a little bit stronger, cleaner on it, but then we rinse it completely.

But if it's gon na stay in place we only use products that don't have any warning labels and nothing that could throw up a red flag with a customer. It's a true story, though, that actually happened, and it was just a rogue tech support person, but no don't put or any extreme cleaners on evap causing any sort. Thank you for clarifying that because I wasn't sure what to tell my text now. Don't do that if you're gon na use a cleaner use it mile don't overthink it, the coils are very thin, just get them clean rag is probably gon na, be your best tool and maybe a soft bristle brush.

The other thing I want to mention, because we're talking about kind of a way of doing this deep cleaning, but there are kits out there at rector steel, makes a kit called the dissolve kit, which is dissolved without an e. At the end of the word dissolve - and it's almost like a big bib that goes underneath the unit, and that way you can get in with a pump sprayer and with some of their dissolve cleaner, which is also a good cleaner, specifically for ductless coils. So I think you've tried that if you wouldn't mind mentioning that I've had a couple case scenarios where you have to clean the evaporator coil on this particular one in mind. It was at some commercial office and they kept complaining about odors odors odors they're on a maintenance plan, so we're just doing our normal preventative maintenance and it's just not getting it clean.

After doing the normal, take a spray bottle spray it down with cleaner, let it suck out the drain line, all of that normal stuff that we do. I polled and clean the blower wheel, sprayed everything down, wiped it down and the results were not good enough, like they legitimately weren't like this, wasn't a crazy customer. That's saying hey, it smells bad like it smell bad, so I said well what we can do is we have this great cleaning kit. We can hook this up and actually use a pump sprayer with cleaner and actually really jet through that whole evaporator coil and do a thorough cleaning that'll be X, amount of dollars and they're.

Like oh, that's kind of expensive. Let me see how it does with what you did. So it's like, okay, not a problem, so they call me back the next day and we're like yeah. It just still stinks.

I was like okay bummer. I was hoping that would work out for you guys. So then, we went back out there and hooked up the kit and used a pump sprayer on this particular one. Because of the issues with smell, we used self Orencia, vaporetto coil cleaner, and we just did everything as instructed, and just we probably used four or five gallons of water mixed with evap sell for it's cleaner and just going over that coil.

That's amazing! It! The bibs kind of clear and you see all the dirt coming out. I was really surprised how much actually came out because again you looking at the coil. It doesn't look that bad, but it's actually dumping out all this dirty water and the kit comes with a bucket where everything's stored inside of it. So that's nice and then it's at the bottom.

So this is all pouring into the bucket. It's like a huge funnel that goes on the ductless system, I'm like man, this better work, and so after we spray it down, we let it sit spray it now and let it sit. We do that about three times and then we rinse, so we went probably through ten gallons of rinsing. I think we had a three gallon pump sprayer, so we did it.

I think it was three times we just straight water. Now that we've cleaned it. We want to get all the cleaner off of it, so we went through that whole process until the water was coming up with crystal clear and put everything back together and it worked great. I was completely happy with the result as far as you kicked it on it smelt like a new system and we were able to rinse it so much that there wasn't even any smell of cleaner left.

It was just new. It was a really good experience, and with that case, that's really the only option I mean the other thing you could do is actually pump down the system, disconnect the lines pull it out, remove the evaporator coil and it took us probably an hour of labor 45 Minutes to an hour opposed to four or five hours. Yeah then yeah use evacuation and everything else does you have to do yeah yeah, that's the rector she'll dissolve kit and it comes with the cleaner in the bucket. It comes with the bib in the bucket.

It comes with the frame for the bib in the bucket it drains down into the bucket, so it's kind of like it's got everything all there and we haven't started using it exclusively yet, but it's really just a matter of looking at it costs set-up time. All those sorts of things so there's definitely applications where it definitely makes sense, and in that case, with most of these, you have the evaporator coil and the blower compartment is all sealed together, so you can get in there on the blower and everything with that kit. You do have to be careful, though, because you're still carrying a pump sprayer in and out of the house, you're still doing that, and so you still want to be really thoughtful about doing that and in a lot of cases we just rather still just pull it Outside but it's a really good option in many case, it's a good thing to have available to you. The thing I would say is being a technician or tradesman, it's all about having the right tools for the job.

This isn't appliers. You don't use this on. Every single job, but when you need this tool, it's a great tool to have. If you did a lot of ductless systems, you could even put a note in the customer's file to say you bring this with you when you do this maintenance or whatever the case may be, and a good thing to have, and that's the rector she'll dissolve kit.

Hey thanks for listening, I want to remind you that HVAC, our school is part of the blue-collar roots Network, which is a network of great podcasts. You can find all of them by going to blue-collar roots com1 podcasts that I really enjoyed is Bill, spawns podcast the building HVAC science podcast. He did one on humidity. That was really eye-opening to me and learned a lot he had Nate Adams on and Nate is sort of like a building performance expert up in Ohio.

So I would suggest that you go listen to that. One on humidity. They'll also did one recently on infrared thermometers. That was good, has a couple witty lines in there so check that out.

So I start going to Stephen Riordan about his trip that he took to Africa and I asked him if he got a chance to play poker while he was out in the Savannah - and he said now, there's too many cheetahs we'll talk next time on HVAC school Thanks for listening to the HVAC school podcast, you can find more great HVAC our education material and subscribe to our short daily tech tips by going to HVAC our school comm. If you enjoy the podcast, would you mind hopping on iTunes or the podcast app and leave us a review? We would really appreciate it. See you next week on the HVAC school podcast.