For those that watched my Livestream on New Years eve this is the video I was trying to show in the stream. This is explaining how the trouble contact works on a duct detector.
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Okay, so on my trainer board here, I've got a duck smoke detector set up and I haven't set up so that we can simulate trouble conditions or alarm conditions, and I just want to explain the difference. Okay, the trouble condition is an instance where, depending on the detector, this particular detector, I can set it up to initiate a trouble condition if you were to remove this cover. So let's say that someone was doing some work on the duck detector and they left the cover off. It would simulate, or it would initiate a trouble condition which would tell the alarm company that there's something wrong, because if you left the cover of this detector off theoretically, it wouldn't sense smoke properly.

The way that this thing works is is that this cover makes a seal and forces air from one side through the detector. To the other side, you can either mount these in the supply or the return. Okay. This is an interesting one where you've got two heads in one control assembly, but this is a standard detector right here same thing: it's just it's configured a little bit different for this one up here, but if I open this up, it has the same controls.

Okay, so the other thing that a trouble condition can indicate, depending on how the alarm company has the detector wired is, they can also indicate a broken wire, and/or a trouble condition or they can on those same wires. They can sense an alarm condition. Okay, so if we come up here, the alarm company is monitoring on the red and the white wires is the way my simulation works, and this is very typical for my area that the alarm company only monitors two wires. You have to understand that they have an alarm panel and most of them don't have an endless supply of contacts to monitor okay, so they will oftentimes piggyback different detectors on the same set of contacts and do different things like installing resistors or they'll, even install poppets.

That will help to identify which detector is tripped, but that's not even our problem. That's the alarm company, okay! So we're just going to talk about a trouble condition and what can happen so the alarm company needs to be able to prove that the circuit is intact. Okay, so let's say, for instance, someone's working in the addict and they sever the alarm wires, but they don't create a direct short when they sever them. They just cut them off.

Well, the alarm company might not know, and so they could still be waiting for their system to alarm and there could be a fire in the building and because those wires are severed, it won't let them know so what they will typically do. If you look right inside here, they will install a resistor now this is not the proper resistor. This is just one that I had on my truck, but they will install a resistor essentially across those two wires to prove that circuit. So the alarm panel will always see whatever the resistors value is.

Usually it's about a 10k resistor they'll see that resistor okay, but that resistors not enough to create a direct short to their system. Typically, what they're? Looking for for an alarm condition or a fire condition? They're looking for this wire and this wire to direct short across and usually that'll happen in the alarm contacts right here, but the way that we have this wired is also to let them know if there's a trouble condition with the detector. So in the duct detector we have a supervisory contact or sometimes they will be labeled a trouble contact. It's important to understand that a trouble contact or a supervisory contact typically has a different action to it, as opposed to the auxilary, a or auxilary B.
So the auxilary, a contact or auxilary B, the common and normally open - are that exact designation so that between common and normally open, it is an open circuit so long as the detector is not in a fire condition. Okay, so same thing goes for common and normally close. So right now, if I put my my meter across number 19 and number 20 common and normally closed, I will have a direct short right now. Okay, but if I put the detector into an alarm condition, I will not have that anymore.

The same thing goes for auxilary, a okay, and actually the same thing goes for the alarm contact. The alarm contact is common and normally open, but if it goes into an alarm condition, it closes okay, but the Supervisory contact is wired backwards, and I've explained this a little bit before the way that they explain it is the Supervisory contacts are shown in the stained By position, open conduct on contacts indicate a trouble condition to the panel okay. So basically, if we tested across 11 and 10 common and normally open, it would be closed right now and if we test it from 21 to 11, common and normally closed, it would be open unless we put it into a trouble condition and I'm gon na simulate. That for you right now and show you guys so our detector currently at the moment is not in an alarm condition.

Okay, so what we will do is we will go from normally open over to common. Actually, I will go from yeah, well, normally open the Komen and you notice that we have a direct short right now. I have my meter set on tone, so that's between common and normally open. Now, if we go between normally closed in common, we have an open circuit.

Okay, it's backwards. Now, let's go to a normal contact and we go between common and normally open and we're open, common and normally closed and we're closed. Okay, that's on auxilary a auxilary b same thing goes on the alarm contact, so you can get on here. Okay, see we do not have a direct short now, let's go ahead and put the detector into an alarm mode or a fire condition, and this particular one you can hold the button down some of them.

You can someone, we can. Okay, it's indicated by a red LED and if we look at our detector heads, we've got a red LED. So let's go check across this. We should have a direct short between common and normally open right now, because we're in a fire condition - and we do that's on our alarm now - on our supervisory common and normally open should be - is closed.
Okay, because again remember it's the opposite: on the Supervisory common and normally closed is open, go over to the auxilary contact again common and normally open is closed. Okay, now we're going to go and reset this, and what I want to show you guys is how and I'm going to I'm gon na similar trouble condition here in a minute. But I want to show you something else: first, okay, so what we're gon na do again remember the way that we have this wired. If you look at it, power is coming in on the red and white wires.

Okay, so I'm sorry not power, but the alarm contact. That's what we're concerned with right now coming into common, but then the other alarm contacts. Let's go right here. The alarm wire is going into normally open, so it's going across the alarm circuit, but this resistor is tied into this circuit via the supervisory contact.

Okay. So if we go up here to the alarm wiring and we test look at this - we have a 15 K. Ohm resistor showing across the alarm circuit, so what we are doing because we're not in an alarm or a trouble condition we're proving imagine this is back at the fire panel, we're proving that the circuit is intact and that nothing has happened to this electrical circuit. Now, let's go ahead and put it into a trouble condition and see what happens so we're in a trouble condition now notice by the orange LED or amber LED, and all that I did was loosen this cover, because there's a micro switch in there that when this Cover is off, it'll set it into a trouble condition, so this is simulating a trouble condition in the detector, but it's also simulating that maybe there's something wrong with the electrical wiring, because again, the alarm panel doesn't do anything with the detector other than monitor its wires Right there and it's looking for a direct short and or a resistor to disappear.

So now what we're gon na do is go across red and white and notice. We have no 15k ohm resistor because of the way that I have it wired into the supervisory contact. We've made the resistor disappear when it went into an alarm condition so again back at the alarm panel. They don't know that there's a broken wire.

They don't know that there's a problem with the detector. They just know there's a trouble condition, but it's important to understand and differentiate from a trouble condition to an alarmed condition. Okay, so, and what we will do is I'll put my meter on tone again. If we had an alarm condition, we would have a direct short across these two wires right here and we do not have a direct sure, no tone.

Okay, but if I go ahead and put this cover back on I'll show you all I have to do was loosen this cover. So now I just tighten it back on notice that my orange amber LED, went away okay and we're gon na go ahead and put it into a fire condition, so we're gon na hold this down boom, so we're in a fire condition. If we go across the alarm wires, we're gon na have a direct, shorter and the resistor just disappears from the circuit. Okay, there's all kinds of other stuff you can do with these.
I can, for instance, this one's wired up to shut down an air conditioning unit. There's all kinds of different stuff, but more. What I'm more concerned about today is just the supervisory contact and the alarm so think about this, like I mentioned in my recent video, if we power down the rtu unit, okay, depending on how this detector is configured, this detector could be powered by the rtu unit. The air conditioning unit, so 24 volt power could energize this detector.

It just depends on the way it's set up. Okay, if we set it up this way, what we can do is we can put a tamper, essentially a tamper circuit on the air conditioning unit. So, let's say, for instance, we want to protect that unit and let the restaurant know if somehow the unit had been powered down. Someone was trying to rob the copper from it in the middle of the night.

Who knows if we I'm gon na, go and reset that if we powered the detector from the rtu unit and wired in this trouble and kindig set it up this way, the way that I have it right now, we would go into a trouble condition if this Detector loses power, so we can prove that by putting my meter back on K, ohms, okay and go ahead and check across this now that we're not in an alarm condition, and we have 15 K, ohms, okay, so the alarm company knows that that circuit is proved. Now, what happens if I power down this detector right now? I just powered it down. There's no more power, there's no more LED lights and we're going to go across those same wires and we're gon na see. If we still have that 15 K, ohm resistor and guess what it disappeared, because when we turned off power, this contact, the supervisory contact, went into a trouble condition and we lost our resistor, but we did not initiate a fire condition.

So it's important to understand, like I mentioned in the video, I always want to contact the alarm company before you do anything you always want to keep them in the loop put your systems on tests, even before you power down units very, very important. Ok now we'll go over here and I'm just going to point out something: I'm not going to read this whole sheet to you. But if you actually read the note number 3 is what I read off to you guys earlier supervisory contact shown in standby position. Open contacts indicate a trouble condition to the panel.

Ok, and this is the schematic to wire up this detector, but it's essentially just telling you hey. This is the problem and notice something see the way that I wired in that resistor. Ok, it actually tells you how to do that in the schematic right here. All I did was follow this schematic exactly took my initiation loop wires from my alarm right here, ran them across the alarm contacts, but then also ran the resistor through the supervisory contacts, common and normally open and then back to the contacts.
So I just followed the schematic on the unit 2 wire this up now I will tell you something: if your system is not wired this way and if the customer doesn't wired it this one it wired this way, you could essentially just take that resistor off put It between the common and normally open alarm contact and still prove your circuit, but then you wouldn't shut down on a trouble condition if you powered down the unit, you understand what I'm saying so you can take that supervisory contact out. I don't ever recommend you doing that without checking with your local fire code to make sure that's not going to change anything with your system, but it would theoretically still do the exact same thing. If that resistor was simply across the alarm contact, it would prove the circuit, but when you power down the unit, it would not put it into a trouble conditioning.

20 thoughts on “Rtu duct detector trouble condition”
  1. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Andrew White says:

    These Duct detectors need a pressure difference between the sampling tubes to work. What does the duct ends look like?

  2. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Steve Holderle says:

    I deal with 1 national chain retailer that of all the name brand stores out there they have the most issue's dealing with smoke detectors and the wiring Centerpoint.
    The note worthy point is they use xyz alarm company who then subs the work out to multiple local alarm companies. None of it is wired the same and when working in multiple state's I'm not allowed to touch their wiring, and yet we are dispatched instead of the alarm company.

    With this said 9 time's out of 10 the issue lies with alarm wiring and yet we're required to replace smoke detectors and the wiring point.

    In a store with multiple units there's always a relay present to globally activate the entire network and that relay can be a cause for trouble as well. Another part the alarm company is responsible for.

  3. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Clayton Green says:

    Worked on fire alarms for 4 years dealt with this kinda stuff all the time good video Service area Barrhaven??

  4. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Paul Deeter says:

    Thanks for this video Chris. I deal with duct detectors at my building all the time

  5. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars throttle bottle says:

    most important thing, always follow local fire codes 😉

  6. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars CCHAM says:

    New Alarm panels are making it easier to pinpoint alarms/troubles…. all that good stuff by using addressable devices with unique ID numbers. IE: instead of “Trouble Zone 16” it would be “Trouble RTU 3 Return” or whatever name they set to the device. Are you in Nepean ?

  7. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars MoonSoo Kim says:

    Always great video!! Thank you Chris! And happy new year!
    And have a question for you
    So A/C units are goes by tons
    But why refrigeration units are goes by horse power? Why?
    Thanks in advance!

  8. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Lee Johnson says:

    Good vid. Also note that many of the smoke heads are addressable on the back so the fire panel knows which one went off.

  9. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Akvan79 says:

    Great explanation 🏅🏅👍 Are you in Orleans ?

  10. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars texture6 says:

    Happy new year

  11. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Alex says:

    Oh nice!

  12. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars sikcnt says:

    Very intresting how fire detection is done in the USA.

    Here in Australia we have the same enclosures that sample air that goes through detectors. Except we have all fire dectetion on one panel that we call an F.I.P (fire indicator panel).

    All the detectors are connected in a loop to the panel and the fip is connected to the emergency services, and sometimes connected to security.

  13. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Vic Terraglia says:

    Just experienced a trouble condition on a RTU. Started Friday before Christmas (2018). Part took a week to come in (Christmas eve/Christmas Day included in this), so I had a beeping alarm panel for a long time. Medical building. Even had a fire inspector breathing down owner's neck…so the supply houses have to do better especially if this is a common issue.

  14. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Randall Calhoun says:

    do you have a video explaining the other contacts. ie the second row

  15. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars DeafHVACR SoCal says:

    Thank you for posting this video. it was hard to understand when. its streaming live. Appreciate it sir !

  16. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΠΟΖΙΟΝΕΛΟΣ says:

    wish you Happy New Year ! thank you for your video!

  17. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Juan Todolí says:

    Cristal clear explanation.

  18. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Tan Tan says:

    Im telling you Buddy…. This is one very very Great video. From Idea to execution of the lesson you made it work. Keep up the good work !

  19. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Dimitri Trotsiuk says:

    Very very good!!!

  20. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars DJSubAir says:

    Thank you

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