So chris thanks for joining us on the hvac school podcast and this live stream here at ahr. It's really good to have you thank you for inviting me brian glad to be here yeah. So, to start with, tell me just a little bit about yourself, because you have a very kind of key role within johnson control, so give us your kind of title and then how you found yourself in this position. Yeah, i'm the vice president of regulatory uh codes and environmental affairs and um.

My my background is i'm an engineer, so i design commercial and residential equipment for a long time and then i moved over into product management and as a part of that product management role. I ended up having to do the regulatory work to develop the product road match. You know where we're going to go and that ultimately led me into this full-time regulatory job which, by the way, all of my counterparts, you know in the industry care trained linux. You know it all have similar roles yeah i do and when a lot of people maybe historically have thought about johnson controls, they thought controls right.

I mean that's right in the name right, but give us just kind of the broad overview of all the different things you have your hands in nowadays at johnson controls, yeah, that's a great question, brian uh. What i do, i i sit in what we call the ducted systems business. So johnson controls, you know, big institutional chillers. We controls, obviously with our digital platforms.

Um air handlers, air, filtration security, fire alarms, you name it, but i sit in the ducted systems business and that's really residential light commercial. You know large rooftops, split systems, gas furnaces is where i focus and the thing that's really on our doorstep. Right now, from a regulatory perspective, where i spend all my time right now is getting the industry ready to transition to all new efficiencies no later than january, 1st 2023 and then right on the heels of that, we've got to take all the products that we've just Designed and convert them to a low gwp refrigerant within two years and that's also a no later than dave. So if you think things are busy now in the industry, wait until 2023 and 2024.

yeah, and so you know whether you love it or whether you don't. It's a reality. I always whenever i do these sorts of sorts of streams or podcasts. I get a lot of people.

You know who want to complain about how it is, but the fact is: is that we're not the ones who necessarily decided this yeah we're the ones who have to make sure how we're going to make it work so for technicians contractors, this stuff is really important. We've talked a lot about the low gwp refrigerants, but we haven't talked a lot really none about what's happening with the does talk a little bit about that. What are we preparing for here, yeah? So every six years does statutory obligated to review the latest minimal efficiency standards for our products, the residential light commercial. Do we decided roughly six years ago we needed to upgrade those right.

So the thing that's complex about this transition um is the regional efficiencies. Where does divided the us into the north south? It's really southeast and southwest for certain types of products. So if it's an ac right and you're in the north region, that's a different minimal than ac's in the south, where your business is right and then different for where we sit today in the southwest uh, so knowing what can be sold through after that date, you Know there's what doe has they call date of manufacturing products and date of installation? Unfortunately, where your business is is in the southeast date of installation, so it means the products. Today's products that are built before 1-1 2023 that don't meet the new minimums if they're not installed by that date, they're they're, essentially dead, you'd, have to move them north right right and hopefully, you've got a friend up there that you want to take yeah.

So from an inventory standpoint, just to your point here, a couple things i want to back up when we're saying doe, that's department of energy. Oh, thank you, and what we're saying here is is that, if you're a contractor and you're starting to you're stocking equipment, you're going to want to pay close attention very close and that's going to vary based on region. And so you need to know what this stuff is yeah and - and i feel really unfortunate for for those of you that span one of those regions if you've got a foot. Oh, my gosh yeah in the north in the southeast, the southwest and i've got obviously customers that do that.

That is double complicated yeah, and so you know when you look at the current supply chain issues where all of the oems have extended lead times. Contractors in those two data install regions in the southeast and southwest really need to think about what product they want to order for this next cooling season. What i'm recommending is that, if you feel comfortable that you can get all that 14 seer product acs installed, you know just realize it has to be done or it's dead yeah. Otherwise, if you don't want that risk or if you think maybe some of the lead times may stay longer, and your order may not come in when you want it, you might want to order 15, 0 or higher.

What's on the energy guide label that yellow hang tag label that way, even though you guys are like your business in the southeast is in the date of install. If the current energy guide label is at or above the new 2023 minimums, those can still be installed. On or after 11 20 23., so that makes a big difference about what you want to order right right, because if you take that gamble with the 14s here, you know that's a gamble, you can get it done and you know you get the product in time. You can get it sold to the contractor in time and get it installed in time.

Yeah. We all know those construction disruptions, so you might want to consider buying anything with a hang tag. Acs now this doesn't apply to heat pumps. Right doesn't apply to commercial right or three phase; those are date of manufacture or they have later transition data.

Okay, all right so specifically like, if you think about markets like miami where they have a lot of straight cool ac systems right. This is going to be a really big factor um. So this is a question that just popped in my head, and this is always dangerous when you're doing a live stream to ask these questions, but you know hey. If we don't know, we don't know, that's fine.

Um, but one of the things that has come up in the past when we do this is it's the ahri match that we're looking at right, um, and that was always what we were trying to hit. But it sounds to me like you know, we got to actually look at the yellow tag. That's on these that's right and and brian. I spent a lot of time working with the department of energy trying to get dealy to accept what we call the mix match.

In this case. Your 14 seer energy guide label, that's below the new 2023 minimums, but when matched with the right furnace or coil is above, do we just in late december, put out guidance? That said, they don't support that oh wow and here's the reason for that. For that to be legal, a complete system must be installed right and so doe really doesn't have a good enforcement arm right right, and so they don't trust that the entire system will be installed. But if you put in a 15 seer or higher, hang tag right, you and me many people, don't know that that rating that's on the energy guide label, what we call in the industry.

The hang tag was established with the least efficient indoor match. So, no matter what you match with it, it will always be at or above that rating itself, and that's why doe doesn't want to do it and it's unfortunate, because the just the distributor organizations and the contract organizations are really kind of. You know not happy with doe on that, but yeah because it forces it forces the manufacturer to make a decision right. So now you have to decide.

Do we just eliminate our low-end air handlers in order to help make sure that our minimum matches? You know, and it's this dance and again it's a dance that we've always had to do and we're having to do it again. But that's why that's why johnson controls has you to make sure that they make the right decisions yeah? I always caution. People don't shoot the messenger here folks, because i don't make these rules right. I try to help influence them, but you know today it's d-o-e yeah and we've got ta, we've got ta, do the dance and we've got ta at the end of the day, create good products that are going to do the job for contractors and keep them prepared To keep them trained, which is what we're doing here.

Well, i would say, if you, you know, look at the glass is half full perspective. Contractors will be able to sell more complete systems. This way, yeah right, which that makes for more efficiency, better customer. You know you know, satisfaction, there's a lot of benefits, you know and what i would say to the contractor audience is.

This is you're you're. The expert here you've got the great opportunity to do even more work, uh with better equipment and our new equipment coming out with controls and communications. This you know, digital acumen is really just going to make the job easier, yeah for sure so. Uh we've talked a lot on the podcast about a2l's already and about the transition, but but kind of give me your perspective on that give it.

You know, give us some dates and kind of a quick overview on that yeah. So right now, um back in december, the american innovation and manufacturing act was passed. President trump actually signed it as part of the broader cover bill and what it does. It phases down: uh hydrofluorocarbons, hfcs over a 15-year period, so starting this year, 2022.

All the way, through the end of 2035, and it's a phase down, it's not a phase out the unfortunate consequence for my sector, meaning the residential light. Commercial is all of these lower gw gwp. Alternatives that are below 750 are what ashrae calls mildly flammable right, and i know what people think. Oh, my god, flammable when we say a2l's just give you an idea of the flammability, it's not like propane or any hydrocarbon right.

These a2l's, unfortunately, do exhibit some flame propagation, but once you remove the flame source, they self-extinguish, so they don't. You can't throw a match on them and they burn and keep burning right. That's not how it works, but you know i wish there was the magic unicorn refrigerant that was low, gwp and non-flammable. This would be a non-issue right, but unfortunately, for our sector now, that's different for chillers chillers has used ammonia and other flammable toxic.

You know that have been for a long. You know been used in the market for a long time, but unfortunately for it's going to be new for the res residential, like commercial sector, and it's going to require some training contractor evacuation pumps will need to be looked at, make sure they're, a2l compatible and by The way when i say a2l, that's an ashrae definition of flammability. So, to give you guys an example: r410a, the current refrigerant, that's dominant in the unitary market is an a1 non-flammable means it's non-toxic, non-flammable and and what it really is not about flammability, it's, whether it propagates the flame, exactly right so 410a is considered an a1 a3. The other extreme would be propane right and then there's a2s and a2l's are a subset of that because they even have lower climbability.

So you can't walk across the carpet and static electricity will not set at all. You can't unplug something in and out of a 120 volt wall outlet that won't set it off right. Even electric heat trips strips below over, like 1200 fahrenheit, won't set it off. So it's just because of this.

This test, the way it's run, it propagated a little bit of flame, so they had to make it an a2 right, but here's the benefit. I would tell contractors, unlike when we transition in 2010 from r22 right, the ozone depleting to the non-ozone 410a. Those two refrigerants were dramatically different in terms of pressure temperatures yeah, that's not the case this time right these new a2l's and johnson controls. This chose 454b as ours.

They, if it wasn't for the flammability, they would almost be considered to drop. In sure i mean they're that close right, yeah pressures wise low glide. You know there's a lot of uh and even even in terms of thermal properties, very good, a latent heat of vaporization really solid refrigerant. So you don't have to worry about an oil change like we had to deal with when we went from mineral oil to pov.

Now just to be clear, some of the others - and i don't want to you - know, talk to my competition too much. They may require some oil change, because one of the other low gwp alternatives 32 does have a higher discharge temperature right. So the thing i need to clear and my lawyers always caution me chris, you must make it very clear that you can't mix and match right an a1 non-flammable system with an a2l. That's why i made the statement earlier more system change out.

So that's the benefit of this right. You can. You can still repair the old 410a products right with like products right, but the new a2l equipment's going to come with sensors and controls that if it does detect a leak, it's going to defuse it because it's going to bring on the blower right. It's got a sensor that we factory locate right.

It's going to have controls that won't be on the old, 410a yeah for sure all right, yeah, it's been great talking to you, chris. It's always great to hear about. What's going on in the trade and uh yeah great information, if people want to find out more about johnson controls and the kind of stuff you're all up to your your trainings everything's, going on, how do they do that? Yeah we've got a website. Just google john's controls there you go, you can follow again we're a big company but look for the the unitary sector, the what we call ducted systems products.

That's where you'll find us awesome. Well, thank you so much chris really appreciate it really appreciate it. Brian. Thank you.