All right, so we are live right now and uh, i'm here with chuck all good and brandon marshall from camour's uh. Do i say that right kimora? Is that the right right pronunciation got it so we're going to be talking about uh, refrigerants we've, we've actually done. Some podcasts recently, so those will be those actually are already out on the podcast feed, but i wanted to get together with both of uh. Both you guys just talk a little bit through kind of what's coming up and then also one of the big questions that we often get is just what makes a good refrigerant like what you know.

If we had, if we had our list of of perfect traits uh, what would those be and kind of how we balance that moving forward um? So i actually want to start with brandon, because we talked last, i'm just talking about regulations and and all that and everything that's coming down the coming of the pike so give us a kind of a brief overview of why we're having this conversation and uh. What are some of the things we have to? We have to kind of navigate moving forward, yeah, definitely brian. So like we had on our last show, we talked a little bit about the california carb regulations that were coming in residential split systems. Less than 750 gw gwp by january 1st 2025., what that means for a lot of the contractors out there is no more new fortinet systems in the state of california right, it's going to be moving to next-gen products.

In this case, a lot of the major oems have been going with xl41 or 454b, which is one of the products that we're highlighting at the expo here and that's in the option. The option brand - that is, the option product, that's correct. When you look at a national level um, the us epa has been in the process of making rulemakings under the american innovation and manufacturing act or aim. For short, we have a lot of information about aim on our website.

It's a pretty heavy topic, so we won't be able to get through everything here today, but do feel free to visit option.com, and you can download a couple of our two page guides. The long and short summary of it is the epa is going to be phasing down the use of hfcs so very similar to what we saw with r22 under the montreal protocol. We're going to start moving down over the next 15 years and reducing our consumption and use in the field. A second piece of that that we're expecting to see as we move through this is going to be comparable sector controls like we saw in california.

So less than 750 gwp x-state for new equipment right! Okay, when the epa rolls something like this out, it's across the nation right. So while there are states like california who have regulated - and we have dates for their rulemaking uh, the epa will put out dates. That will cover all the other parts of the country that don't already have a rule making in place. So it's going to cover the other 49 states and those aren't in place.

Yet on the ep at the epa level, that's correct, they're being discussed now, got it and so yeah so like it often as often is the case. California kind of sets the hard line um, but for manufacturers they don't have a choice but to because, of course you know, california is one of if not the largest hvac market in the country, so they have to start to build equipment. That's going to match that, and so that's what's going to hit the market so talk a little bit about actually i'll go ahead and move it over to chuck. Let's talk a little bit about um when creating a new refrigerant.

I mean because that's what that's, what we're dealing with now um we're having to you know kim morris, is having to come out and opt on and say: okay, what is going to make for a refrigerant? That's going to be really good for the marketplace and obviously they came out with a really good option, but what are some of the things that they had to consider when developing a refrigerator things we should think about um? First of all, it's a it's really is a balancing act. It's not just one criteria right. It would be easy if it was that way, but it's always been kind of performance. First, it's got to do its job or else none of the other things matter.

So the thermodynamic properties, in terms of you, know, equipment, cooling capacity and energy efficiency of the two big metrics that you want to hit and a lot of times what we're doing is trying to match something. That's already out there. So 410 was a little bit different than the r22, but the 454b. We just mentioned that that was really designed to match as closely as possible, 410 um performance and - and we do that with all refrigerants.

If it's an r12 134a kind of looked like uh r12 and then the thing's coming behind it but uh, then after you get the performance, then you start thinking of things like uh, toxicity, flammability, it's fine environmental properties and we we need them to be non-ozone, depleting All at this point now we want to be low global warming, potential, um cost uh being able to manufacture. That's you know that's kind of behind the scenes that a lot of the industry uh doesn't see until they get it in the jug. But you know: moore's has to invest a lot of money in building chemical plants to manufacture this stuff and to distribute it uh across the world. Yeah.

It has to be available. I mean it's one thing: it's one thing to come up with uh with an idealistic product. It's another thing: to build economies of scale to actually deliver it to the trade, which is a big thing, which is why i think we're seeing um we're seeing this refrigerant and r32 kind of emerge as the two options because of the investment that's existed in the Case of r32, it's been out for a really long time, so for some people, it's all right. Well, that's an obvious choice.

Um talk about that uh just from a high level, because this is this is what a lot of the conversation uh conversations are coming down to. What's the difference between uh and again, this isn't like throwing anything under the bus here, it's just. What are the difference between these two between r32 and the refrigerant that option has so option is a is a blend based on an hfo uh 1234 yf is the hfo ingredient and with along with r32 um. So you look at neat r32.

It's going to have a higher gwp, you know in the 600 range versus 454b, which gets down into the 400 range, and you know we're squeezing the range of gwps we came from very, very high stuff in the thousands people think uh, 404 507. Around 4000 is high, but you know r12 or 11 were even higher than that um, but in the outer years of the phase down those gw points are going to be important. So i think that's a major decision factor for a big oem to invest in a in a product, uh platform. Yeah.

You want to kind of future proof it i mean. You know you don't want to make a decision and say ooh. Well now, there's a new regulation, and now we got to go away from our 32 again, you know. So that's a that's a big big consideration in terms of the performance of the refrigerant.

How do you feel it it kind of stacks up to r410a? I i think uh performance wise. I think it's uh, it's a very good uh replacement alternative. You don't kind of want to call it a replacement, because it's not going to go in right. It's not going to it's not going to retrofit.

That's a key thing. We have to be clear about here because a lot of people ask what's going to be the retrofit for r410a and the answer is at this stage: nothing yeah, nothing right, yeah right, so yeah performance, wise, it's a very good replacement. It has a discharge, uh temperature. You know advantages over r32 uh same lubricants, uh same tools, it's going to be mildly, flammable, it's going to be the a2l category, so that will have to be taken into account, mitigated both in terms of the oem's equipment and what they put on there.

Any sensors or extra ventilation, and then the service contractors will, you know, we'll, have to have recovery machines related for a2l. A lot of the tools will be the same and get everybody trained on that those are the the big differences. I think it's going to be an a2l but uh performance wise. It's going to be very, very similar to 14..

So a lot of technicians ask in terms of doing you know connecting to the equipment. Some people had talked about. Well, maybe there'll be left-hand threads, maybe they'll, be you know something like that. Is there any? Is there going to be any significant changes that you see coming down the down the pike for technicians in terms of servicing the equipment? I'm not sure where the industry is.

Maybe brandon knows on the left-hand thread thing: the cylinders will they'll be, have a red stripe on them or a red top they'll be they'll, be things like you know it's a flammable refrigerator. I don't know if that's been resolved yet or yeah. Definitely so actually there's an ongoing dialogue about the cylinders. Do we want to have those left-handed threads on there when you look at the equipment right now, though, and where the equipment manufacturers have been working, they're going to use traditional right-handed threats, so we've been and uh.

If you guys have feedback or feedback comes through your audience, we're trying to understand, left or right and what's gon na make the most sense. You know on the right-handed side of things you have that's what we use today right, it's nothing different when you think about left-handed threads, it prevents somebody trying to charge a 410a system with an a2l product right right, so it helps to prevent the mixing. You have to take that extra step, but there is an ongoing conversation around that. So if the viewership has feedback we'd be excited to hear that i think generally people are going to not want to have to get adapters.

You know that's sort of the easy answer, but but yeah to your point, um, we don't want to walk up to a system that we assume has r410a in it and then end up that somebody put a different refrigerator. Maybe a homeowner or a maintenance person, or something like that, so that is uh. You know we don't want to accidentally have an a2l in there uh and that that would help prevent that. So it is an interesting, interesting question um as far as a2ls in general, though, let's let's kind of peg that, because i think a lot of people hear flammable these are flammable refrigerants and they immediately start to think of hydrocarbons.

You know things like propane and isobutane and kind of what, because a lot of us have received training on that we've received training on r290 uh. Anyone who works in the in the uh refrigeration space has started to see it come out in these small self-contained systems, and so i think, a lot of folks think that the precautions and everything have to be to that same level um. So how would you kind of describe the difference between you know an r290 propane type refrigerant and an a2l refrigerant um. The the best explanation i heard a few years ago from a former colleague of mine, said, if you were trying to make a fire with an a2l refrigerant you'd, be severely disappointed.

It's uh it's hard to ignite. It doesn't burn very well. If it does ignite it. Doesn't propagate a flame very well and it doesn't give off a lot of energy when it does burn.

So in terms of things we measure in the laboratory things like burning, velocity or heat of combustion or minimum ignition energy. You know those get in real, detailed engineering. How much of a spark does it take to set off an a2l once you've reached a flammable concentration right? You can static from walk across the carpet. Do it or do you really need a you know, some type of torch, to get this stuff to burn and then does it burn like a birthday candle or does it explode like a in a ball of a flame, so the a2l's are much on the very Gentle side of that right, there barely get into the flammable category on on a number of those metrics, but they are different than the a1.

So we need to take the appropriate precautions, but to me they're they're a lot more similar to a1s than they are to an a3 right. We do have to have the appropriate uh safety mitigation in place, yeah and actually, i think, a lot of people don't realize this, but this a2l designation is kind of a new thing like this. Isn't this hasn't been around a long time before it was a1a2 a3. So brandon would you care to just kind of comment on that a little bit, and just there is a difference there, even between a2s and a2ls, and that's the reason why that new designation was come up with.

Definitely so when you think about every refrigerant out there. Today, there is a possibility that they can combust. Okay, the test that we use in the laboratory and what a lot of chuck's team has been working on is we essentially have a glass bowl and it has a metal line in there. That has about a 90 degree angle if it burns inside of that 90 degree angle, it's classified as an a1 as you start to get further off of that 90 degree angle.

That's when it goes a2 a3 with a lot of the new refrigerants. They were only slightly over that 90 degree angle in the glass bowl. So because of that we had to create a new designation because they weren't falling into an a2. They weren't getting even close to it.

They were closer to the a1 side, but they still needed to recognize that there is that mildly, flammable portion of it versus a 410a. So this is more or less how industry came up with the 2l designation, and that was to support that lower flammability limit that we see with a lot of these products right, and i think it's also worth noting um. All of these things are designated through doing a a battery of tests, but when we say things like non-flammable, that's also a bit of a misnomer, because i mean everything i should say everything, but most everything is flammable to some degree or another, and so even a Ones because people point out, you know our fortune and the right conditions will burn well. That is true.

I mean if you have a really hot house, fire uh, that it will burn. But so when we say non-flammable, it's just a designation that we're giving something based on a set of tests in order to hit a certain standard. And so sometimes when we get. I guess i guess what i'm saying is: sometimes we get worked up about things because, like this is flammable that isn't flammable just realize that all of this is on a spectrum you know, so we're being we're doing our due diligence to say this is more flammable Than an a1 right, so you do need to take some more precautions, but what we don't want to do is get this idea that you're carrying something that's the equivalent of gasoline or propane in your truck.

But on the flip side - and this is me talking - this is not - this is nakamura's, i'm always trying to kind of placate the audience to make sure they don't. You know, get too worried, we deal with things that are far more flammable all the time. You know you take a tank of propane, you put it in the back, your truck, you drive it home, you hook it up and your you know your 10 year old kid lights, the grill right i mean this sort of stuff happens all the time. It's all about proper practices.

As long as we follow proper practices, it will be safe. If we do not follow proper practices, then it will not be safe and again. This is me talking, but i just want to say this, because a lot of these things occur because of regulation because of just where we're at and then companies have to come up with solutions for these things um. But it's nothing to be afraid of.

If you do what you're supposed to do yeah, that's that's exactly right and there's other parts of our industry that deal with you know. People are warehousing large quantities of systems or large quantities of jugs of refrigerant so and they have to have special. You know precautions around their operations and as well as people who are pulling out torches and working on a piece of equipment with a refrigerant, flammable or otherwise, and all flammability, as you mentioned, is, according to some standard and uh yeah, a stack of papers sitting on My desk will burn if i put a torch to it, but it's not gon na i'm not worried if somebody flips a light switch that it's it's going right so yeah, it's all a matter of perspective on this yeah absolutely talk a little bit about it. This is maybe a little out of order on this podcast, but it's something that i think people think of a lot.

The differences between the transition from r22 to r410a and what we faced in that transition versus what we're going to face in the transition from r410a. To you know the next generation of option refrigerants so we're thinking about you know. R22 was such a great refrigerant, and i've heard that a lot over the past two days here at the show yeah and it was used in so many different places. Um, big chillers, residential ac, commercial, fridge, low temp, medium temp, um, and so there wasn't going to be one refrigerant place, replaces all those applications, but particularly where 410 is now.

There was no good single component that could look exactly like r22, and you know there was a. There was a little bit of debate in the product development. There was a 410a and a 410b back in the day and uh. They had similar uh similar properties, but not exactly the same, and i think the industry converged on one, but there was a little worry that's a time when blends were first coming in.

Oh, my goodness, this is a blend. It has multiple components. Is it going to stay together? Is it going to fly apart right if it leaks um and the pressures were a little bit higher and there was a lot of concern around the pressure of 410 back then, and we seem to have gotten over that? I'm glad i knew we could we've just like the industry has come to be able to work with temperature glide slightly higher pressures um. So once we converge on 410 as an industry, you know there's a little bit of a hump learning curve to get over, but then i think everyone was off and running and we're doing that again now i think the pressure's temperatures and all that handling going from 410 to something like 454b is gon na, you know be very, very similar, but now we have the the flammability thing: it's probably the new curveball, that's gotten thrown at the industry and we'll get through this, and it's going to be a big training effort.

I think 2025 is not that far away in in our time frame for for transitioning uh starting a big transition like this. So i see that as a big one, training, education, that's that's what we're yeah! That's what we're driving about! That's what we're doing here so yeah um so 454b compared to 410a in terms of glide a lot of people get concerned about glide, it's something that a lot of techs aren't trained in, especially in air conditioning and refrigeration, or maybe overseas, where they've deal where people Were deal dealt with the 407 series of refrigerants that have significantly higher glide, but in the us we haven't had to deal with it. If you've been in air conditioning tech, you've maybe been trained on it, but you haven't had to use it. Is there going to be any significant difference between 410a and 454b um? I think if you look on paper right, the glide of 410 might be, you know one or two degrees and uh 454b might be three four degrees.

So it's a little bit marginally, a higher glide um, i think for 410. You could almost ignore it and not run any problems, but i think you should do your best practices on setting superheat make sure you use the dew point if you have, depending on your pt chart or your pt, app, that you're using um leak, recharge topping off Without you know having to pull the whole charge, that's not an issue you'll be able to add a pound on top. If you need to, i don't see any other issues there taking liquid out of the refrigerant jug when you're charging. I think those practices that people people have been doing will will work just fine for 454.

I don't see any. I don't see any client issues yeah and again, as you start to work with refrigerants, even with slightly more glide technicians are going to have to start paying attention to, like we said, dew point bubble, point and midpoint uh, and that comes up sometimes when you're looking At your digital gauges um, so just just. I always like to say this, because tattoo haven't noticed this, for example, if you're using an app like measure quick when they, when you look at the gauge, it's going to show you midpoint, because midpoint is sort of like the effective average. But if you're looking at super heat, that's going to be looking at dew point and i always remind people the way i remember this is it's duper heat, so dew point for superheat and bub cool, a bubble point for sub cool, and so it's going to show You each one of those depending on what measurement you're, taking if you're, using an analog gauge, set or using something that doesn't have that intelligence in it.

Then you're gon na have to pay attention to all all three of those different uh measurements, depending on what you're doing now again 454b, not going to be a huge deal, almost almost uh irrelevant, but just good thing to know and you're not going to get away From it, because again, if you ever do any refrigeration - or you know you're going to see much much broader uh glides yeah, i agree - super duper is how i learned it. Super duper stuck in my head uh, but you're right. I don't think you'll be too far off, but we should always do our best uh best practices out there to set things up and especially more troubleshooting doing that kind of work. I think it's important to do this yep absolutely so what else do we need to? What else do we need to cover for technicians, any resources, anything that we want to point people to to have them? Have them learn more there's, probably some people watching who are even going to be on the show floor here shortly, so anything we would suggest yeah.

Definitely feel free to stop by our booth, of course, as always we're right over in 2116, here on the central hall, so we'll be there all day until the show closes down here at 4pm, as we talked about when we did, the podcast brian training is going To be key so remain steadfast on the training side, we make a lot of resources available on our website. There's a lot of other groups out there that are also putting training together around a2l refrigerants. We talked a little bit about esco and i know there's a few folks from esco that are walking around here. So hello, if they're listening and you know, as these programs are developing again, go through the program, understand those differences that you're going to see and just make sure that, when you're working with these products, you're keeping the best practices that you've been using today and keep An eye on the flammability side of things, yeah the option, website's great the option youtube channel is a great source.

Escogroup.Org is a great place to go to learn more about a2l. As you know, jason objet. He did a podcast and video with me. I don't know a couple months back, so if you want to watch that and then we obviously have the podcast that we did with dr chuck and with brandon uh recently out.

So if you want to learn more in depth, go to those places but yeah it's great talking to you guys thanks for stopping by and it's always it's always a pleasure thanks for having us brian. Thank you, brian. Thank you.