All right. so we are live here at age of 2023 Atlanta Georgia I'm here with Cody from California National training manager uh with collecting Yep, uh so we're going to talk to some hydronics talk which everybody knows that I'm kind of a poser when it comes to hydronics but I'll fumbled my way through. Uh, but Cody's got like real Tech chops. she's doing it for a while.

so yeah, tell us a little bit about you kind of your background first? Sure sure. Brian Well, thanks. Uh, first and foremost for having me and everything like that. Uh, happy to be here.

uh again. Uh, you mentioned before I I was in the field so I I did have some field experience for about 10 years and I switched over to the manufacturer's side just a little shortly after that I was working on everything from forced air to geothermal to hydronics to whatever my boss wanted to throw at me. and uh, after that I decided I I really like the idea of teaching and training I had a little bit of experience while I was while I was with that company and uh and here we are to go to guys when it comes to hydronics but admittedly not my not my strength. Um, tell us a little bit about the Lefty though.

like what is, uh, what all does is an Italian manufacturer of products typically like accessory type products that you're going to find in your hydronic systems or your Plumbing Systems So we make everything from mixing valves to zone valves to balancing valves to manifolds big on brass. so we're a big brass manufacturer which is really common in Northern Italy And from there we do also steel components and we do a lot of injection molding as well. Now as far as coffee North America is concerned, we're actually based out of Milwaukee Wisconsin. We do a lot of light assembly there.

We do a lot of warehousing. All of our product comes anywhere. If you're getting our product in America the United States or in Canada it's coming out of Milwaukee Awesome. Yeah, Uh and yeah.

they obviously have an investment in training because you're the guy I'm the guy. It gave me a lot to do this. Pretty awesome. Um, so yeah.

so what sort of trainings do you typically do? Uh, you know, it's kind of all over the place. It's you know, there's there's, obviously, as you. as you probably already realize, there's a huge need for education in this industry. There's a a big gap between a lot of the the older generation that are starting to retire and the new guys that are coming in.

and uh, you know it's It's not just technicians you know I work with uh, you know, service contractors I work with Engineers I work with wholesalers I work with anybody? Uh, you know I actually have a group coming in next. Uh, in the next couple of weeks? Uh, it's actually a plumbing inspectors Association of Southeastern Wisconsin Okay, you know, now that's a mouthful. but there was a thing I know I didn't even know there was an association for such an animal. Um, but these guys wanted to come in and learn about balancing domestic hot water research systems and and you know it's one of those things where the more we can educate whole you know, a rising tide lifts all boats you know kind of thing.

Yeah, and do you find that like most of the challenges that you face, this is true in the other parts of HVAC and most the challenges that you face come from improper initial commissioning and installation? Oh yeah for sure. Um, you know I when I was in the field I I Don't want to say that I was the cleanup guy, but it was one of those things where you know if we just installed this Cody it doesn't work. go fix it kind of thing, you know. and whether it be a miswiring or improper setup of controls just in general I would say in in general, uh, anything with electricity going to it is usually kind of a a taboo area for a lot of technicians.

you know, when I saw over here you got some of these simulators and people using meters and everything and I think that's so fantastic because there's so many guys that I talked to on the phone that just they don't know how to use a meter you know. and it's I'm literally training them to do that first sometimes and then going on to whatever we need to work on. So yeah, it sounds like it's kind of the same thing that a lot of us have been talking about the application. A lot of it comes down to just mastering the fundamentals, being becoming masters of those real basic principles.

and like I mentioned when we were talking before like Dan Hollahan's books. Uh, basically everything I know about Hypertronics I learned from him and just the kind of the Eureka moment of pumping away and all that stuff. Pretty fascinating stuff. Sure.

Um, so yeah, so tell me, just give me some samples of some of the most common either mistakes or common questions or things that you're having to kind of reiterate consistently with hydraulics. Sure, Well, you know, at Calafi we make all those accessories that go in the boiler rooms, the mechanical rooms throughout. Distribution Systems Um, you know there's there's a lot of boiler manufacturers out there that put on a lot of trainings and I think they do a fantastic job, but they kind of want to stick inside their boiler you know? and they don't want to talk outside the boiler. And what really makes it great at Kaleppe is that we do get to talk about that.

Um, and and with with your question in mind, you know a lot of our questions with hydronics really come from just your near boiler piping scenarios. Like you said, pumping away, um, the idea of point of no pressure change, hydraulic separation, uh, proper sizing the piping and circulators. You know, we don't even make circulators, you know. But it's one of those things where we do talk about it quite frequently.

Um, not only that, you know best positions for this type of equipment, You know proper locations and things like that. It's it's. pretty amazing what happens with a lot of these jobs where you know I always joke with the fact that uh, hydronics and I would say it goes for heating, forced air, heating and cooling as well. You can screw it up pretty bad and it's usually still going to work well enough to where nobody's going to complain.

And and the the thing is with it is knowing best practices and knowing why you're doing it that way as opposed to just I Do it this way because my boss told me to. um, you know, knowing those differences is what makes a good contractor a great contractor or installer technician? whoever. Um, And so what we really try to go for is is not just where to put all the pieces of the puzzle, but but why you're putting them there as well and not only knowing the rules, but if you know the rules, you know the ability. If you, if you bend the rule a little bit, you know what's going to happen too.

Which is it's key because sometimes you do have to bend the rules a little bit. Yeah and at least you're going to know the consequences. Sometimes you Rebel you? Yeah, exactly I know I know I'm gonna pump into that expansion tank is what I'm going to do. Yeah, you know better.

Yeah, uh yeah. and it's interesting. Um, when you say that that you have to first know first principles. you have to begin with.

that's what they're called first principles. You have to begin with. Um, how heat flows work. How um, you know pressure drops and it just flows rates and all that kind of stuff and all that we do is move BTUs around like that's that's what we do.

exactly whether it's with error, water, Um, we're moving BTUs around. Yeah, it's riding on the back of air water and now understanding. Um, you know flow rates and deltas and all that kind of stuff that that all ties into that. we talk about it all the time.

What are some of the things that? um, if you if you had like one thing that you regularly have to talk to contractors about, where they're like, they're just like not getting it right. What is what is one of the most common things? Give me one. It doesn't have to be the most. It doesn't have to be the most common.

but I would say he's on top of your head. You know. Uh, we're We're a big manufacturer of mixing valves. three-way mixing valves.

So the idea that you're taking hot water, cold water, mixing it together to create some, uh, tempered water, whatever temperature you're looking at, right? And so, uh, when when you talk about mixing valves, they can be used in plumbing applications. obviously. And all of our mixing valves are low lead. Uh, So they can be used in plumbing or hydronics.

But when you are using them in hydronic applications, uh, proper placement, enough circulators, and proper sizing of mixing valves is a very common application. Because uh, in a plumbing application, if you have a three-quarter inch mixing valve in a plumbing application, you might reach your maximum flow through that mixing valve and it produces a 10 psi drop. Okay, 10 BSI is not a whole lot in the plumbing application, but 10 psi is like 20 some odd feet ahead in a hydronic application. And what that's going to mean is a really big pump.

You know to be able to pull through that kind of guy. And not only that, again, you know the idea of sizing that mixing valve appropriately for your application and the flow rates that you need. The idea that you're you're you're installing it correctly. You're pumping away from that mixing valve to provide it the ability to have the choice to choose from hot or cold to mix it properly in order to get the job done.

So, I I would definitely say mixing valves is right up there. It's a conversation I have quite frequently not only on the hydronic side, but the plumbing side as well. So yeah, thinking about yeah, there's always a cost with any sort of a valve. or I mean obviously you can like vastly oversize things, but making sure that you get that sizing right.

We think we do this a lot with solenoids. Yep, where people think you can just put hey, if the if the size of the tubing on each side is the right size, that's all that matters. So no, you actually have to know. You know what is the capacity of this valve you have.

You have to have that, uh, appropriate pressure drop in order to drive the valve, but you don't want it to be too great, you know? So there's all these all these factors like that that come up. That's a Goldilocks scenario. The just right scenario in and you're 100 correct. I Mean if you everybody's so afraid of undersizing, uh, equipment or mixing valves or whatever, uh that in a lot of cases they'll oversize it and that can be even worse.

especially on the plumbing side. You know when you when you look at a three-way mixing valve, every three-way mixing valve is going to have a minimum flow requirement and the reason behind that is is that when you bring the hot and cold together into that mixing valve, it needs to create enough turbulence to create a good mixed temperature for the whatever wax, motor or sensor that's going to be in that mixing valve. And if you don't create that that turbulent environment, the sensor or the motor is only going to read either all hot or all cold, it's going to hunt all over the place. And to be honest with you, Brian if I had a nickel for every time a contractor uh, went and ordered a mixing valve solely based on the size of the pipe that it's connecting to I could probably retire already and I'm not even 40 so that would be that'd be great if I could.

But yeah, yeah, you'd have a few nickels. I Like the Uh I Like the Goldilocks uh scenario, that's what you got I'm going to use that for now. Yeah, it's going to be more power too. Yeah, not too hot, not too cold because I always learned something.

Yep, cool. So what are some products Technologies things that are kind of changing or emerging? sure, uh that you're excited about? Yeah, so you know, in as an industry, uh, the heating industry, hydronic industry as a whole. Uh, we're seeing the the huge effects of decarbonization. I mean obviously everybody's talking about it.

The idea that we want to get away from natural gas, we want to get away from Propane Fuel oil. Whatever. we're seeing. Huge, huge increases in in demand for heat pumps and alternative fuels and everything like that.

I Think that's going to to also create a demand for better operating systems. You know you, you get a lot of these systems where they they were, you know, designed 40 or 50 years ago. they worked great. But now also you're putting this new piece of equipment in there and it's a you know might be a little more finicky than what you were used to with that old cast iron block boiler or steel boiler.

and and you got to work around that kind of stuff. And and so I'm really looking forward to what the future brings for product and now at Calefi. we are. Uh, we are a company like I mentioned before that does hydronic and plumbing accessories.

So as a company we are putting a lot of heavy focus on the plumbing industry side of things. Uh, you know we're looking. We're going towards backflow prevention, pressure vacuum breakers RP backflows the list goes on and on and on pressure reducing valves. Uh, we're coming down the line with a lot of really cool stuff.

Now hydronic wise. we've also got some of our pressure independent control valves that are going to be more for your commercial type applications, but they're also very cool. but again, I I'm I'm really looking forward to the industry and where we're shifting with different types of heat sources and fuel sources. I Can't wait to see what comes about! Yeah, that's going to change.

Yeah, some of it may change too quickly, some of it may change too slow, and they're going to have to kind of you know Bob and weave with it as we go for sure. But yeah, it's good to again. like I always say this but and I but I truly mean it. Um, it's cool to see organizations like Lefty who have somebody like you in place and who are focusing on training and recognize that a well-trained contractor base, whether it's Plumbing or hydronics is what makes for uh for better outcomes.

Yeah, the better outcomes for the client, the better outcomes with lower warranty returns for you guys. Uh, and that's every bit helps you I will say too. You know I mean on the topic of Education we are uh, hugely committed to to education so much. Obviously, like I said I'm that's my full-time job, is doing education but but with that in mind, uh, you know for for your listeners if they are interested in learning more about a hydronic applications and and even Plumbing too for that matter, we actually produce a technical Journal two times a year it is completely free.

You can download it as a PDF We have got digital versions of it. We've got uh, paper copies too that you can sign up and have delivered to you. And with those uh, copies of hydronics we tackle all different types of topics. um and and everything from pump sizing to uh, heat emitters to heat exchangers.

Uh, you know we we did. Uh, Geothermal, solar thermal the whole nine yards. It's tons of tons of information out there and again it's registered fingertips so don't hesitate to look into that stuff. It's awesome.

It can make a make it a game changer for you. So great! So for people who want to find out more uh about you guys, where do they go? Yeah, you can just go to Kalefi.com The only thing I I will mention is that when you're on the website, make sure you're on the North American version of the website. We are a global company. If you go to the international website, you might see some cool product that we don't have here quite yet.

But if you go to the North American version of the website, especially when it comes to education, there's a tab right across the top where you can click on education. You can see our technical journals that we offered there before. We've got tons of stuff on YouTube as well. Um, you know we're all over the place.

The podcast. Everything So nice. A lot of good resources for those guys. Nice, nice.

and now HVAC School Podcast Yeah, exactly So and again, thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely well. Thanks so much. Cody It's really nice meeting you and uh, best of luck.

Yeah, thank you.