You know the drill by now. This is a class from the 2023 Hvacr. Symposium This class is about flammable refrigerants and it gives you an update on everything that you need to know, at least at the juncture when this was made. A lot of things are constantly changing, but this is a great conversation and it's from three of the great minds in this space: Dr Chuck Allgood from Comores, Don Gillis from Comores, and Jason objute from Esco.

So if you're worried about flammable refrigerants or you want to know more about how to prepare, this is the class for you. Thank you! We're going to give you a quick update, a really quick update of what's going on with the transition to low Gwp, A2l refrigerants and then Dr Chuck will move in. We'll talk about flammability characteristics, and then we'll be followed with Don. We'll get into some of the things that you should know and with that, let's kick it off.

Let's get started. As you know, we're in the middle of a transition. When does it start? Well, it started last year and we're continuing on. These standards have been updated both design and installation, and there's been regulatory updates as well.

So one of the questions that comes up is do I Still need a 608? Yes, You do. To buy these refrigerants, store these refrigerants, transport, work with you. Still need the Section 608 certification. You still need to recover these refrigerants.

All right, The A2l Low Gwps. Some of these refrigerants may also have layers of other regulations such as in California where you can't use 404a so there may be state level requirements as well. The Aim Act is what started all of this. It was a Federal Regulation that passed through both chambers of Congress signed by the President and it mandated that the EPA phased down these Hfcs.

All right, How much? Well, in the end, 85 percent. We started with 10 last year and in 2024, it'll jump to 40 percent, leaving only 60 percent of the the market share. That's a big jump, so we're willing to see these refrigerants slowly start to phase down. It's not a phase out, it's a phase down.

There will be gas left for service, but it's going to be on us to recover these refrigerants and bring them in for Reclamation to help keep that price down. So here is sort of the uh, the timeline of once these phase Downs happen. We saw in 2022 here 2022 that we had a 10 and in 2024 we're going to hit that 40 percent and in the end it'll be again 85 percent. It is a step down with some big cliffs in there and one of the big Cliffs that's coming next year.

These refrigerants that we're going to be discussing up here are Snap approved. What that means is the Epa's approve them for use in specific applications. All right. There have been two Snap rulings snap 23 which approved these refrigerants, these six for use in Comfort cooling, which is what we're going to see.

If you look next to R32, you'll see that little cross there. That means this isn't the first round for R32 it's already been approved for something else. Back in 2015, we started having R32 in window units. All right.

A lot of us didn't notice there might have been some stickers on the box a little flame symbol, but it kind of went over smooth. No one really questioned it, but it's been. since 2015, we've had an A2l in our window units. Our package units Snap 25 approved these refrigerants for commercial refrigeration industrial processes.

You'll see one, two, three, four, YF on there as well. That's going to be a big one moving forward. It's going to be a big part of the industry, whether it's a direct refrigerant in the system or it's part of a blend of refrigerants that are released to hit these specific applications. So Snap 23 and Snap 25 approved these A2ls for use in the field and specific applications.

Having said that, now that they're approved, we need the installation and design standards so that everything is safe. Um, a lot of people question and say, well, what are we doing with these flammable refrigerants? Why are we changing? Listen, nobody up here wrote that that legislation. none of us had a vote in that It happened way above our head and it kind of rolled down. All right.

all we're doing is that communication thing that Brian talked about bringing it to you kind of in English a little bit more so and you know from the engineering and codes and standards speak. So the standards have been updated to include these. All right. We have to have safety we bring.

If you're from the north where I'm from, we bring in methane, natural gas, We pipe it into the house, We pipe it into this machine, and then we set it on fire. And that's how we stay warm in the winter and no one bats an eye. All right. Why there's safety built into that machine, right? There's a rollout switch.

There's a pressure switch. There's a limit switch. There's an auxiliary. There's all of these redundant safeties built in to prevent the unit from operating in an unsafe manner.

You all running service Vans Y'all I Said y'all from the north, Y'all running? Yeah, Running in service Vans You pull up to the gas station and you put 32 gallons of an A3 fluid into your service vehicle and then you sit on it. when you drive to the next service call and you don't bat an eye. We send our 18 year old kid to the gas station with a 30 pound tank, walks in, gets a 30 pound tank of propane, puts it in the trunk, drives home, brings it in the yard, and sets it on fire to cook. We don't bear an eye.

All of these things have safety and in their application and in their design. And these standards are that. Safety. So Ashrae has standards for the installation maintenance service.

Safely of these refrigerants, they have been updated. Ashrae is actually 15 and 15 too, have been updated in 2022.. and again, it tells us the expectations for installation, service, maintenance. Those sorts of things.

On the design side, UL has standards for how these systems need to be designed so that they don't run it. We don't have an ignition event so to speak. All right, we're not going to say explosion or fire or burn, we're going to call it an ignition event. So we have two standards there: Uh 2-40 and 2-89 that have been updated and we'll see in two.

Yeah, the Laser Uh 2-89 actually incorporates some A3 refrigerants and we've seen higher charge limits in the new 2-89 for propane, isobutane, those sorts of things in corded appliances. 2-40 was for again, our air conditioners, dehumidifiers, heat pumps. Those sorts of things. They have been updated.

So we have updated installation and maintenance standards, we have updated design standards, and again, this is all driven by regulatory to phase down Hfcs. So far, so good. Am I going too fast I've had a lot of coffee, All right. The one caveat to this is that this transition is happening at an uneven pace.

So the codes, the standards of even the building codes have been updated to incorporate all of this. Now it is up to the states at the state level to update their building codes to the newest versions to include these. Some states are ahead of others. In some states, you can walk in your supply house and buy these refrigerants and these refrigerant systems already in other states like, no, no, don't bring that here.

Not yet. All right, it's coming. It's gonna have to come. All right.

We're we're phasing these refrigerants down. Um, and we're seeing again. the two L's come out. If you look at this map, it kind of breaks down again.

These are dated slides. There's real-time maps online that kind of show you where the different states are. Uh, who allows it? Who doesn't? For a better picture, We can look at this one if you look at the striped states there. the striped ones have already updated their codes for both air conditioning and Refrigeration which means A2l is already part of the code for both the refrigeration sector and the air conditioning Comfort cooling sector.

If you look at the blue, they've done their AC They're still working on the refrigeration. If you look at the yellow, they're in the process. They're in committee. They have things written to get the ball rolling to get these standards updated.

And if you look at the white, they're they're a little behind. So this and that's the nice way of saying it that they have to get off the schneid and start doing something all right again. This is a living document there. This might be updated tomorrow.

All right. So there's live versions of this. If you go to the Ahr uh Ahri website, there's an Srttf. Just remember that Google S-r-t-t-f and boom.

it comes right up. There's a link for a map. The map. You can hover over the states and it'll tell you what they're doing when they did it, that sort of thing.

These are just screen grabs of the maps. So some of you again Brian said you come from all over the place. Some of you can walk into a supply house right now and buy this stuff. Some of you your State's like yeah, yeah, we're not.

No, no, not yet, not us. Any questions on the regulatory side before I hand it off to Dr chucker Who's going to get into some of the properties of these flammable refrigerants, these A2ls and A3s. So again, this is coming. Uh, it started up here.

We didn't start it all right, we're bringing it to you. This is. there's no turning back at this point. So fire.

So good. All right. I'm gonna hand it off to Dr Chuck Thanks Jason Thanks Jason Uh, good morning everyone. My name is Chuck Alligood I'm with the Cabor's company.

If you're not familiar with Kimora's we were the spin-off unit from DuPont So historically we were the inventors of Freon. Back close to 100 years ago, we continued to, uh, operate that business and support the refrigeration industry. I Am a chemist by training I'm not an engineer. So all that stuff Brian said about engineers being nice and kind and smart? You can can ignore that.

make your own judgments here. Don Who'll follow up with me with the real practical Hands-On Stuff is also with Gamores, but we're glad to support the Symposium and be here. That little caricature there of me that was, you know, a hang on from the Kova days when we couldn't get out and train. Someone said, why don't you make some YouTube videos So a lot of the cool stuff about flammables you can see is better to see in person.

see things burn if you're into that kind of stuff. So there are some videos online that actually will show some of these things live, so I would just refer you to that. But I Want to take a few minutes here just to talk about the properties of the refrigerants themselves, the fluids that we use in the past we're using today. we'll be moving to in the future, so hopefully you've seen a chart of this version here.

This is Matrix is based off of Ashrae standard 34, the refrigerant safety standard and it it's a letter and numbering system. so A and B is the toxicity. It's just two classes: lower toxicity, higher toxicity. Just about everything you've worked on unless you're an ammonia guy, has probably been a class one.

I mean a Class A in toxicity, lower toxicity I think 123 big low pressure chillers were also a Class B And flammability wise, we've pretty much been in the one which colloquially we will say non-flammable but according to standard it's no flame propagation. That's important distinction I'll talk a little bit about later. So we've been down in that lower left A1 category. Things like 134a 410A R22 all A1 refrigerants and with some of the environmental pressures and the regulations that Jason kind of gave an overview.

There's a lot of detailed regulations around that, but we're moving the industry to lower Gwp molecules. which means we're going to go up in flammability. And so the the new classification it's It's been around for a few years now. maybe 10 years is this: 2L So it's fairly flammable.

We call it mildly flammable. lower lower flammability is the standard language as opposed if you get up way up in that class. three. that's a highly flammable.

So that's where the hydrocarbons are. Propane, acetylene, and butane can I Get a show of hands. People work with propane anyone? Fair Number of people and they've always been. What? small? you know, 150 gram self-contained Factory charged.

Pretty safe pieces of equipment to work on. They are moving the charge sizes up a little bit for A3s and some of the new standards and codes. so we'll be getting bigger systems out there with propane in them. Something to keep in mind.

Well, one thing I want to do today is show you a little bit of the differences in terms of the actual gases of what oh uh, one flammability versus a 2L versus a three look like. And at the heart of that is this flask over here. So this gets the nerdy chemistry side of things going. but this is kind of the test we do back in the Laboratories I Got about 30 years with Dupont Gamores and we got a lot of really smart people who wear the lab coats and I get to come out and do this fun stuff and hang out with all you guys.

But the basic flammability test is a big flask here. I think it's about two liters I Don't know if it says it's about size of a basketball and it's got an electrode in the middle of it. so you fill it up with a mixture of gas and air and you ignite it and you see what happens and you keep doing that changing the mixture. and if if you get to A flammable concentration and I'll show you how flammability is determined in a second.

here. that's what determines if something that's flammable or not. so it. there's some some degrees of uh, separation here that aren't that great.

So if this is a picture of that actual flask we do in the dark so we can measure what we call the flame propagation and that's a 90 degree angle there. that is to turn on its side that V But this is an A1 refrigerant so this is class one. This could be 134a or 410. So first point is, when you ignite it, you do get some combustion right around where the ignition source is.

same way, if you had your torch and you get it into an area where you had enough of even 134a or 410, you may see what we call Flame Enhancement the flame May Grow You can generate some decomposition products that don't smell too good. They aren't something you want to get up your your snoots. You always got to be careful around with a torch around any refrigerant. That's a second point I Want to make, but if the flame reaches from side to side on that 90 degree angle, then it's determined that that's flammable.

If it doesn't make it, it's non-flammable so that one there just doesn't quite make it if you look on the right side. But you put a class 2L in. So this could be like 454b which is a Kimora's replacement. For 410, it's going to be coming out or 32 other ones that is, uh, too well flammable.

So again, third, Point Not a big difference in how these things actually look in this test. so we're pretty, uh, small Degrees of Separation As I said, that's one of the take-home messages today too that the two L's in a lot of ways are going to be like the A1s. Some notable differences you need to know about it. You need to understand it.

You got to have the right tools. Don will cover all that, but 2l's are a lot more like ones than they are at class three. So that's propane. so you can just see it just consumes immediately the whole flask world of difference between a one and two L and a three.

So if we look Beyond just as it is it flammable. These are some of the things as a burn or not according to that first test. Then you look at some of the physical properties and it gets into combustion science and that type of thing. But we look at things like burning velocity and heat of combustion and this is all part of the standard.

Um, but you can see down there in the middle something like minimum ignition energy. That's how much of a spark does it take to light this thing off? If you would have a leak and you'd have the right composition because there is a lower flammability limit, an upper flammability. You can be too lean, not have enough fuel, too much oxygen. You could have too much fuel, be too rich and so it wouldn't burn.

But if you're in that window of flammability, then how much ignition energy do you need? So the minimum ignition energy is it is this a birthday candle? Is it a torch or can static electricity from, you know, walking across the room on a day without much humidity and set this off My tools Electric Electrical switches. That type of thing so you can see the difference there in minimum ignition energy between um, something that's a 2L and something that's at three The three. Zero point, two, five that you know any kind of ignition Source Around a competent mixture of propane, it's going to ignite it off two. L's take a lot more energy and that's why they're a different classification.

Burning velocity is how fast does the flame propagate once we get it ignited. Does it take off like a blowtorch or a ball of fire? Is it burn like a birthday candle and you can see the differences in the numbers there and then finally heat of combustion down at the bottom. That's how much energy does this give off when it burns again? Is it? Is it A lot? Is it a little? Is it somewhere in between? So you can see across the board how these impact You know the risk that you're going to be facing. Uh, when you install these and a lot of these numbers and this science here is what went into developing the proper safety standards and then into the building codes.

So you want something that's hard to ignite, It doesn't give off a good flame when it does, and it doesn't do a lot of damage if it does burn, that's kind of where the two Wells land. So again, a lot like the A1s, but they are considered flammable. They have to be treated that way. Any questions about this: I Know there's a lot of data and a lot of units here, but it kind of explained the Practical side.

Yes, sir. I Was the two categories split between two and two L? Um, it, it was in the Ashrae standard I Think there was a need to look at the Uh, different fluids that were available and and what would make sense? I'm not answering this question too well, but they wanted some differentiation so they can make some choices. This is okay for it to this is a 2L There's really not a lot of two refrigerants out there in a practical sense I think R152a, which is a it's used in aerosol propellants and stuff not really big in the refrigeration. it's used to component in some old Blends But for practicality purposes, we were either a three or a one historically.

So now we're at 2L. So again, the risk is minimized with two L's That's the whole reason we're going to two L's and not the three in something like, uh, the HVAC industry. So again, if we put all this together, where does that end up? As we're transitioning the industry into two L's they're less likely if they do leak to form flannel concentrations. they're harder to ignite.

As one of my chemist's friends says, if you were trying to make a fire you with two L's you'd be probably disappointed. Just for these reasons, it's really tough to ignite them. They don't burn very well. If they do, so, we can get bigger charge sizes.

The reason propane historically was at 150 grams maximum charge size the Assumption was: if it all leaks out into a typical room, you're still going to be below the lower flammability concentration. Because there's just tons of ignition sources around. For something like propane with two L's it's going to take a lot more of the fluid to leak out into a given space. Therefore, you can put bigger charge sizes in when you're doing the wrist mitigation.

Uh, Don Are you going to cover the tools and that kind of stuff? Okay, yeah, well. I won't go into that. I'll save that for a dime. but there's not a lot of ignition sources for 2L So a lot of the equipment stuff you have is going to remain the same.

And finally, if worst case, worse, you do have a leak. You do reach a flammable concentration. There is a significant ignition. Source The overall event is going to be as Jason called it.

The event is going to be less severe just because they're less energetic materials. All right. I'm going to hand it over to Don here. Yeah, thanks.

Hey, let's hear it for Chuck Great job Chuck Great job Jason So uh what? I took away from that uh is uh. there's a big difference between A3s and A2l's uh. A2l is a new kid on the Block You know, just a little bit. not necessarily to do with my presentation, but you know up until 10 years ago there wasn't two.

L's right. In fact, it was such a mild flame propagation. Obviously I'm in Chuck's world now he's the chemist. I'm I'm just a contractor, but uh, they actually recertified ammonia.

They went from B2 to B2l because of the you know they said well, if that's an A2l then we should be a B2l. So just a fun fact about that again. I'm Don Gillis uh been with Kimora's about five months or so. Some of you might remember me as the trainer for Copeland or Emerson for quite a few years.

Uh I know I've met a lot of you uh I Want to say Kudos The people that were taking notes throughout that all I was just blown away. It's uh, it's it. and Brian said it so well. The people that come to this event they really here to learn.

So uh, thanks for doing that. So I want to established one thing real quick? I know I'm preaching the choir. That's why you're here. There are no hydrocarbons in A2ls and the only reason I'm saying that to you is not.

Everybody goes to training like you're doing today and I hear this thing all the time. Well man, I don't want to mess with that I don't want to mess with this. You know, why do they have to be flammable and those kind of things? So the second thing I want to establish is pretty simple stuff here. If you don't know already the A2ls that are coming out, you will not be able to put them in any existing equipment right now.

Okay, so let's refer to it as the legacies or as Chuck said and Jason said A1 classification that will not be retrofitted into any existing systems. Okay and and now the father and me is going to kick in because I do have a 37 year old that is a HVAC licensed contractor like I was uh is, don't do it. It's not worth your liability. Even if the flame propagation is really really small, it's not worth it.

Okay, it's just not worth it. Plus you don't know what you're leaving behind. somebody to walk up onto. so be safe, do the right thing.

Okay, all right, enough of that. All right. Like Jason said, he hit it quite well already. R32 A2l has been around us already for a long time.

If you bought a car in the last six seven years, you've got 12 30 for YF in it. Okay, it replaced with R34. Okay. Also, as he mentioned, R32 and P-tech units slapped a lot of those in the back.

the day those have those have R32 in it. Okay, a lot of that's Asian driven. So it's been out there for a long time, so it's around us already so you're just not aware of it. I Know when I started speaking about refrigerants like seven years ago? it was a lot of deer in the headlight stuff on A2l's and those kind of things hydrocarbons.

But now it seems like everybody's really inquisitive about it. It's getting closer. the window's closing on us. Okay, and that's why you're here today.

Uh, so I'm going to get into the tanks. Some of this is hot off the press, so I'm just the messenger. We'll field some questions to look like so we're gonna have plenty of time. A lot of knowledge up here on the stage.

Okay, to the to the left: A1 classification. What we use all the time. The stuff we're comfortable. the 134as, the R22s, Everything that we've talked about before 410as we used to have the relief valve on.

There was a ruptured disc, right? everybody? No ruptured disc. Okay, and the purpose of the rupture disc was. Let's say it was in your van and it got way too hot in there. Let's say above 130 degrees or whatever that was designed for and it went off if you don't know and you've never had one go off.

which that's a good thing. Uh, it releases the whole charge on the tank right with the new tanks. Even though it's a very low flame propagation, you're going to have a relief, a spring-loaded relief type valve on it. Okay, which is to the right.

That's what it's going to look like. All right, So that'll go go off long enough to relieve the pressure that's needed and close on itself. Okay, just so just in case something could. The planets line perfectly and something happens.

So that's one of the biggest safety features you'll be seeing on the new tanks. All right. And I'm going to take all these any questions right off top your head right now. Yeah, go ahead.

I Understand, we might be going to just refillable tanks and not throw away tanks. Yeah, So what his question was for those of you at home listening in was he understands they're going to be going to refillable tanks. There is talk of that. It looks like it could be possible I Know some people are fighting it right now.

The biggest problem I Know and hopefully I'm not letting any top secret information I Don't think I am it's out in the news is there's real concern about getting all those tanks made? Okay, there's just not a A A enough manufacturers to put that many uh, you know, cylinders like that refillable cylinders out at one time at the dates that they're proposing. so it's probably going to be either put back or a little bit on hold. I guess is the better way to put it? But yes, that is a proposal. So, but but uh I I just if you just look at the statistics, it's going to be a while.

But yes, will they change the fittings on these tanks? Yes. So I that's part of my hold. That thought for just a second. Let me let me.

I got about three slides and once I touch these three slides I might answer your questions, but that's a great question. I like the way you're thinking and I appreciate the questions too. By the way, uh yeah, go ahead. Well I'm going to go ahead and answer his questions then too.

He's got one here too. So with that uh, spring-loaded relief is that if it's similar to like a propane tank, is our Blevies a concern? What was the what was something? if it had it has a spring-loaded relief like a propane tank. Our blevies a concern. I I don't know if a boiling liquid expanding Vapor if if the tank was to be yeah, exposed to high heat I don't know if that's a concern with this refrigerant I I Understand the question I don't have a good answer for you Yeah Levy is a boiling liquid experience? Yeah, it's one of those that turns into like a popcorn in the tank, right? Yeah, yeah, that'd be more Chuck question.

So um, go ahead about possible change in fittings. Like the fitting, will they? If they do change, the fitting will be like the exact same as the automotive left-hand Acme Thread: Yeah, so I'm going to go ahead and address that question. now. it's a perfect time.

We'll knock it out of the park here. Uh, so it's so right now, this is hot off the press. Okay, we literally made the first model two weeks ago. somewhere around that Chuck Chuck's heavily involved in that end.

I You know I get I get fed. That information is we are going to go with left-handed threads on the tank. Okay, uh, not all the manufacturers have, uh, have uh, decided what they're going to go with left-handed hose threads I Think what you're going to see from what we understand, is there's going to be some type of adapter. Now what does the adapter do? People are saying why in the egg to go with left hand? Is this another tool we have to buy? Look, there's someone like myself 31 years ago that jumped in a truck and was cleaning up job sites and carrying somebody's tools that's starting every day in the industry.

It's one more step that they got to take that hopefully it'll put in their head. Oh, for some reason, my gauges aren't going on this thread. Oh, that's right. this is an A2l and that's an A1.

You know what I'm saying. So as little as it seems to you with all this Savvy people in in the room, it's it may help somebody else. Okay, look. I've walked up on job sites before we transferred to 22 to 410A I'm not I love telling my my mistakes because I learned from them and I remember starting to charge the darn thing in R22 and realized I had uh, it was 410 in it and I and I did do that I had to evacue everything so that's kind of the reason and hopefully that answered your questions on that.

Okay, yeah, we had one more done. Yeah, go ahead. Yep. and I got a slide for that too.

So instead of that disc uh, you're you're gonna, you're gonna use like something non-spark preferably like a brass of some sort and uh, puncture it. but it's it's it. Nothing's been written that it has to be this or that. But I do have a good visual for you to see here and just great questions.

Love the questions. Don't puncture the relief valve a spring-load Yeah, you'll shoot your eye out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's that's going to be changed. But a great question I Deeply appreciate you asking that.

It's very pop. That's why I'm going to touch on here a little bit. Good stuff gang. Okay so here, hot off the press, you're the first people to see this publicly see this.

so omit the one down there in the far bottom right side. Okay with the Red Cap there was two Alternatives red band or Red Cab No one else was making a decision. Camura's decided since we have most of the refrigerants that are out there uh, the patents on all the you know, the freons and what have you, we went with the red stripe. That picture up at the top left hand side is actually just sent to me last week and I popped it in there.

That is what it's going to look like. cut and dry. You see the puncture Mark there in the center of the tank as Jason said you're not going to hit the ruptured disk now because there's not a rupture disc there anymore. You're gonna Punk it in the side there just like that to de-arm it.

uh decommission it. Okay, uh uh, they'll have that red band around them I got red top because there was a con, there was a a question where they were going to go. they were still taking ideas, decide what would jump out best at it. So if you see a red band around it and all those tanks by the way, if someone hasn't mentioned already, they're all going to a neutral color.

Okay, it's all going to a neutral color. and and some people I've seen other presenters joke about like hey, they ran out of colors but the truth of the matter is there's there's truth to that and the reason there's But we're on the serious side of it is they don't want anything to be kinda blue and a little bit different. blue and you grab you. See what I'm saying because how many times I mean I've grabbed a lot of refrigerant out of trucks before In The Heat of the battle, especially in air conditioning I mean their heat pumps are not so much.

but people are complaining and they gripe it and they got to get their air on right? So that's the reason for those colors. You're gonna have a plain tank or a plane tank with a red ribbon around it or a red stripe. It'll also be stamped with what refrigerants on it. Okay, so it'll tell you what's on there.

All right. Anything I missed there. Oh, counterfeit shrink wrap on the top of it. It'll have like a foil wrap on it to protect it.

as far as to let you know that it's not counterfeit. and I know that probably doesn't sound like a big deal to you, but I've learned a lot in the five months I've been here on some of these samples they take from other refrigerants coming from wherever. Uh, and they do a test on it and it's not even the right blend. There's a little this and a little bit of that.

so if you're scratching your head on a job site sometime and you bought some as you know, something crazy, uh, you know it's kind of like a Frankenstein refrigerant sometimes and you can't get your PT charts to Jive up, That's why. Okay, so just be aware of it. shrink wrapped on the top there. Uh, you got.

it's pure it. More than likely it's it's good stuff. Okay, all right. did I miss anything? All right? Yeah.

Go ahead. Uh, it's gonna be. Help me out here. Is it the The: the refrigerant.

Is it stamped on the tank? or is it uh, is it it'll be printed printed standard label? The color will just be Yeah, it's like Battleship I Don't know if some of you noticed. There's four 10A things holding all of the uh, the tents in place. And if you look, some of those tanks are still pink, but if you look at the other ones, they're the neutral color that Dan was talking about. They're the Arielle green gray color.

Yeah, uh. everybody's going to this the the tanks no matter what it is. If it's 134a, 404a, 407c, R32 R454b they're all going to be that neutral color. Yeah, you're going to be forced to read the label.

Yes, which is a good thing. you're going to be forced to read the label. That's a good thing. Yeah, actually in in a instructor group on Facebook that I I help administer would belong with Jason Uh, there was a question in there from an instructor and he showed the picture of the tank and he said this was just sent to me as this real stuff So we had to go through the process to explain them and then everybody started chiming in.

Other instructors from around the world of yeah that's what they're going to and here's why. So it started a good conversation. Go ahead. question on the uh sorry, just a question on the printing on the tank.

Is there any changes in the ink? The reason I say is I've had cylinders in my truck that after a few months of sliding them in and out of the metal cylinder container, that ink is gone. but I I could stare at a pink cylinder, a green cylinder, a blue cylinder and an orange cylinder and go got it. So that's why I think the reason about stamping came up is realistic world. two three months in a truck that that printing is gone.

Yeah, so well that's why there's those other uh like the left-handed thread that he had spoke of was one of the things that occluded that hey this is this is something different and then the other recommendation is to keep it in the Box because the box is going to have all the warnings and the safety information on there as long as you can. Yeah, yeah, well thank you for that feedback. I Hadn't heard anything about that I have and it's been a lot of only because I'm in all these groups and trying to help other people out and people helping me. and but yeah, that's been brought up a lot and my next picture kind of shows that what we're talking about sitting in there scraping coming out because that's you.

That's typical of what a truck or at least what I drove. Anyways, what a truck looked like back 100 years ago. notation of the technicians to keep that cylinder in the Box Yeah right, it's just not going to happen. I mean I think a couple of workarounds would be either the stamping or that ink needs to be printed on the top near the handle where it's not going to rub off, but around the perimeter of the tank is just not a good place for that to be indicated on.

yeah, and it's been that's been brought up so many times and and usually if somebody says like that in the box and no offense going out there because that's probably the proper way to do it because you still have it's just coming from 24 years in a truck of my 31 years, it's not realistic. Okay, I'm just being honest with you and you you're you're preaching to the choir and I'm preaching to the choir and and we all get it so that's many. That time something's new and I think Brian did a good job of defusing it. we're just The Messengers We have to try to transition I mean we all transition from R12 to R22 to four I Remember believe me, this transition, my personal opinion.

Come back in five years and tell me if I was full of crap or not. Uh I think the transition from 410A to 450 4B is going to be much smoother to A2l's than it was when we went from R22 to 410A I I I Feel strongly about that. We never saw those pressures I Remember going in the sheet metal room, the reason the morning they flipped up a screen and said you're all going to get certified for this new thing called Puron and we all took the test and we all passed. we went out in the trucks were freaking out about these pressures they're going to be in our truck.

Does anybody remember that? I mean it was just like yesterday but it's been. You know 410A has been around 30 years oil too. We went from mineral to Poe exactly. That was a big deal using nitrogen.

while you were brazing how much that changed because of Po oil. you know being a like a solvent. almost. But anyways I'm going down a rabbit hole here.

Great questions. Um I too had too much coffee under the material trades. it's uh, business as usual material trades were I'm starting to use some fancy words here. Same restrictions as as places 440 pounds regardless of Hazard Now the Federal Plan records are required for not required for service vehicles.

for transportation there is and I don't know I don't think there's anybody here for transportation. Okay, uh, we're still talking about there's still talking about them going on horizontal I Don't want to get in the weeds to hear too much, but there was some concerns of having not having a barrier. a vapor barrier between that. But uh, as much as I can say right now, it passed the test, it just needs to be resubmitted.

Okay, so no concerns there. but as of right now, it's still upright like A1s actually are. right I mean still are supposed to be anyways. So I want you to focus on I have a bad angle here.

The what I'm really going to hit on here because I'm running out of time is I want you to look at the things in red. Okay, so when we look at the things in red, I'm going to go. Everything else I can assure you is the same when we go to the Reds purging circuit with inert gas nitrogen. Uh, not required.

A1s should be good practices, but not required on A2l's it'll be required. Okay, so stay tuned for that. Uh, the SEC the third one down. Evacuate The circus wasn't required, but that was good practice, but now it's going to be required.

Okay, there's going to be a little more of that stuff going on down to the leak and pressure test not required. Uh, always. You always considered good practice. Okay, but now it will be required.

Okay, all right. Uh, and that's pretty much it. Everything else is like for like what's the difference between evacuate circuit and Evacuate the system is evacuate circuit the refrigerant circuit. Yeah, before you're doing work on it Yes, exactly yes versus ability of it any uh, what am I trying to say the uh yes residual gas in there? Yes, Okay, down to it down to zero PSI or whatever the EPA requirements are for the pressure in charge.

Remember the EPA recovery efficiency chart. Another question I had about recovery tanks. Are we going to be able to use our existing recovery tanks to recover A2l into it? I'm going to touch on that too. So some tools are going to be there isn't They are like scales are going to stay the same.

There is going to be everything's gonna have to go be to A2l approved. Now with that said, I'm not here to sell tools I don't even sell tools and the tool Maker's not. But they have to be re-certified There are some situations as I'm going to show you in the next slide uh, that manufacturers are offering you to send that in Appians one of those our local Appian I and I are pretty good friends. Uh, do a lot of recovery together.

Um, you can send it back in and be re-certified It's I. Guess what I'm saying is there's little to no change, but you should at least get it checked out. Okay, but the new equipment just like gauges when it changes to 410A it said you know 410A approved and the recovery tanks recovery tanks will stay the same as far as I know? Yeah, they'll be okay. At first there'll be a detail that you get from the supply house to stick on it, but eventually when the supply chain catches up, they'll put a red stripe on it for you.

Yeah, yeah, so the recovery tanks that answer your question? yeah I sort of danced around a little bit didn't I The pressures are the same that we're seeing now with so our 32r 454b are very similar to 410A So if a tank can handle the pressure of 410A it can handle the pressure of R32 or R454b. Yeah, yeah, most of it's going to be business as usual, but uh, you will start to see A2l approved A2l certified and those kind of things on a lot of the tools. Okay, all right, there's a bunch of those outside today. by the way, if you walk around to the booth you'll see it says we've done a lot of these tools that you see out here.

Yeah, yeah, there really wasn't a lot of change at the factories they just identified as being okay so there wasn't any confusion. So good question. So coming to the end here, A2l Equipment Servicing. Here's just to name a few.

I don't have any connection with any of these. We're not in that market. Uh Appian Yellowjack at Navac and uh, when in doubt as we always say, check with the component manufacturer, check with the manufacturer anytime you're in doubt. Okay, always check with the manufacturer.

A lot of documentation I Know it's a small read there, it's too hard for you to see and what have you. but uh, all those things I found easily online and you can do the same thing. If you really want to know about refrigerants, my Shameless plug Dr Chuck's being humble, go to YouTube check up with Dr Chuck He breaks down just the simplest things in two minutes. They're short, little, you know, not long, boring videos on what those letters and numbers even remain in a what the refrigerant you're using and just different things things.

Okay, it's pretty cool stuff. You'll really, really like it. Uh, my name is Don Gillis You can get a hold of me if you ever have questions. Don dot dawn.gillis Comores.com Okay, did I miss anything? uh uh.

290 used to teach a lot of 290. As it's already been mentioned, it's going to go from 150 grams which is equivalent of about 5.2 ounces. You'll start seeing that and I think it's uh, proposed now to 350 and 500. 500 will be open cases.

Uh, 350 somewhere there about will be anything with a door or drawer. So the more potential of gas being trapped because it is an A3 we cook on the grill with it right? Uh it it. there's more potential to get trapped in there. it'll be less charged Everybody understand that.

Pretty easy stuff. Yeah, okay uh anything. I'm missing on that Jason No I know I think. Just be prepared that again, the the charge sizes for these corded appliances is going to go up.

Yeah yeah. so I'm gonna I'm gonna any. we'll open it up to questions now. Okay, everybody have questions and if there's anything online, shoot it on in.

I talked too much I had a shame on them for giving me two coffees. That was the fall. Okay, do you have any additional questions? Yes, How long do you think it'll be before Yellow Jacket comes out with a little fan. Well that's a good point.

There's some of the so what happens if I'm doing service and one of these systems is locked out because of a leak or if I'm working in commercial equipment in a machine room and I have an active sensor that indicates a leak. Well, I don't go charging in there with my cape and say hey, I'm here to fix this. You got to ventilate that area first So some sort of a fan to ventilate before you again enter that area. And keep in mind anything with enough parts per million will kill you, right? Even CO2 at 15 000 parts per million million if it's not ventilated will kill you.

Okay, 410A You just use good practices. As Jason said. So where do we find out more about this? There's a lot of information out there. A lot of people are saying, well this is new.

Well, this really isn't new. This has been coming for quite some time. There is a lot of training available already. You're here getting some today.

Uh, but where I work at the Esco group. We do have a training program. There's a manual uh, a book, an e-book There's a closed book certification exam on it that you can take online or uh, in paper. Oh, and I'll get to the okay.

there's a picture of the book and the e-course and things like that. But there's also some links that you can go to. Here there's links and you can scan those codes again. for more information.

You can go to Option.com or you can go to Comores or you can go to ESCO group. also. remember I told you go to Uncle Google and put in S-r-t-t-f That's the Ahri Safe Refrigerant Transition Task Force Dr Chuck Donen Comores. They've given us tons of information to put on that site.

All of that information is from the manufacturer. it's free to download, and it's all highly accurate. It's straight from the horse's mouth. All right, it comes from the standards committees.

It comes from the manufacturers and the Oems. Oh, just got the flag that we got five minutes left so we got a question. Yeah, get a question down there. Just a couple questions on.

uh, you touched on. The pressures are going to be about the same that we're looking at. Yeah, Okay, yeah. and then flushing out a system if we're going to be using reusing a line set from an r410a.

Okay, that's a good question. He asked about flushing the system so I can use the same lines. Okay, one, it has to be allowed in your local jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions will allow it, some won't.

Two, it has to meet the standards Azure 15 or 15 too. in certain residential applications. you're gonna have to if it's inside of a wall. a stop that you're going to have to open up and show that it's protected with Striker plates.

Uh, it's got to be tested for to be sound leak proof. That's if it passes it meets the standards and it's allowed in your local you know jurisdiction then Yes, yeah. and some of you are. Is anybody under codes right now that you have to use Striker plays because I've been using Striker plates for 25 years as I'm still holding my license for Journeyman card for you know what tractor plates are? Yeah, I mean it's It's pretty common plumbers use them all the time.

Go ahead. Who has reliability in the event? Yeah, yeah, yet to be determined. It depends on what caused the event? Was it someone over charging pound of way more refrigerant or it should have been in there. Was it a manufacturer, a defect? Uh, did the homeowner run into it with the driving lawnmower? That sort of thing.

It depends on why that event happened. So are we going to educate customers? As we said we, uh, know the insurance thing. Let me ask you this: how many people's car insurance went up when we put one, two, three, four YF in the car or your homeowner's insurance when you go to Best Buy and you buy a refrigerator, it comes with isobutane or propane. A3 Did your homeowner's insurance go up? So so we want something I want to add for you because I think I always still think like a contractor like I said because I talk to my son all the time I know I know quite a few people I still think like that is what we don't know yet.

That's interesting. That's a missing link here. We're only talking about refrigerants is all your Oems that are going to 454b and those kind of things. By the way, I have literature with those pressure temperatures we were talking about and all your cop and stuff.

Uh, there's going to be sensors in your air handlers and your furnaces I You know we didn't touch on that because that wasn't what we were here to talk about. So in other words is that air is traveling through. it's going to be at the manufacturer. They're going to have a small.

even though it's a small little flame propagation for A2ls, they're still going to put sensors in there. There's going to be a lot of features that's going to change there, obviously just to make sure it shuts down, isolates the system, and sends off some type of alarm or whatever that looks like on the thermostat. Go ahead. I Got a question online it says what is the best advice you can give for someone that will use refrigerant for the first time.

Wow, It uses the refrigerant for the for all refrigerants. They just said use refrigerant like in general. Well, you need the remaining. Yeah, get your manual out.

Are you licensed? Hopefully you had some training or whatever. 608 Yeah, that's a That's A that's A that's another hour if you're using refrigerant for them at a time that's a mentor. Yeah, yeah, let's we'll let's get back to that question there. But uh hey, you know there's a new person starting every day in the field, right? Adam The storage of your of your tanks on your trucks, right? They have to be vertical Right now.

The requirement is vertical. However, as Don mentioned, there's been petitions to D.O.T to allow for shipping at 45 or horizontal. Those tests have been done, tests have been passed. They're again.

we're waiting on word for them to allow it. At the moment, they are required to be upright. Yes, they pass the test, it's being submitted and all we need to do is you know how everything else Works EPA stuff and all that in the ocean. It's got a sign off on it, but the testing passed for the horizontal.

Just so you know, we'd like to thank you for sitting and listening to us. Hey, thanks a lot! Big thanks to Don Jason and Dr Chuck for doing this And as always big shout out to ESCO Group Antique Morris for sponsoring HVAC School all of our content. They are a really good resource for us as well. It's really great to work with people like Chemours and like Esco who not only want to be part of what we do, but also who produce such great training themselves.

Big thanks to them for the partnership. Big thanks to them for their candid conversation about what to look for flammable refrigerants. Thanks for watching our video if you enjoyed it and got something out of it. If you wouldn't mind hitting the thumbs up button to like the video, subscribe to the channel and click the notifications Bell to be notified when new videos come out HVAC School is far more than a YouTube channel.

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