This episode of the HVAC school podcast is made possible by our sponsors first off this episode sponsor refrigeration technologies at refrige, tech, comm, founded by John Pasteur, ello and now run by him, and his son, Mike really great guys, actually had a chance to meet him. A couple times and just great human beings - and they run a great company and they make great cleaners as well as other products, the Viper cleaners. If you haven't tried them, you need to the aerosol spray can with the Viper cleaner, and it is a really great all-around cleaner. It's got a nice pin spray to it, so you can use it on coil clean in place a lot of different applications that we find for that, as well as the pan and drain spray, nice replacement for pan tabs.

You can find out all of these products find them all by going to refridge techcom or by going to true tech tools. Comm a lot of the products I talked about. You can find a true tech tools, use the offer code, get schooled for a great discount. A little secret you may be able to find solder weld products at your tech tools very soon, so keep clicking refresh on that also air Oasis air oasis.com for Josh go.

They make the Nano and the bipolar air purifiers. You can use those very easily in your business, integrate those as part of your business strategy for IAQ, a lot of customers out there. Looking for solutions for some of their indoor air quality, allergy, odor challenges and the Nano as well as the bipolar, are two products that we found that work great. They have these really neat petri dish kits that you can use.

You can get those from air oasis that you can set out and actually see before and after what's in the air, that's something I really like with air Oasis so find out more by going to air oasis.com /go fill out the form, and you can get information Of how you can start using air oasis in your business and then finally nav AK navigable comm is where you can find out more about their products. We've talked a lot about the NRP 8 di and 6 di vacuum pumps, with the built in micron gauge a really interesting pump that works great. I've bought a lot of them for my business and really enjoying those, as well as the NEF 6li flaring tool. The battery-powered flaring tool that just spits out perfect flares every time.

If you make it a lot of flares, you work with ductless or vrf, and I would definitely say to out the NEF 6li. It's easiest to use flaring tool that i've ever used and it really makes perfect flares every time in my experience so check those out by going to navigable comm and also you can find those at your tech tools, comm and now the man who uses they don't Make them like they used to as a universal verb Brian or this is the HVAC school podcast hey, what's up with Randy Travis, and I'm saying I used to listen to Randy Travis back in the days. If you want an interesting Wikipedia article of what's gone on with somebody is fallen from grace, my goodness look at Brittany Travis. What am I talking about? Okay, oh yeah.

That's right! Let's focus! I literally watched thinking randomly about Randy Travis and I figured I'd just say it, and while I was in front of the mic anyway, this is the HVAC school podcast, the podcast that helps you remember some things that you might have forgotten along the way, as well As helps you remember some things you forgot to know in the first place and this week we're talking about additives, additives to your system and additives somewhat like Randy Travis have fallen on hard times. We found out a lot of things about additives where they can cause trouble and maybe you're, not somebody who's sold on and I'll be honest with you. I've talked to a lot of people who have said what I respect to have said that its oil and refrigerant only and then I've talked to some other really smart people who use some additives now and again, and I've been torn throughout my career. I've kind of gone back and forth because again, I'm not a chemist, so I figured hey: let's bring on a chemist.

John Pasteurella with refrigeration technologies is going to talk about additives and he really doesn't have a horse in the race because they don't sell any additives. So he just gives his honest opinion about them. The research he's done what he's read and I think you'll find it interesting. So here we go john Pasteurella with refrigeration technologies talking about refrigeration system additives, thanks for coming on John thanks for having me again Bryan yeah.

It's a pleasure to have you on and I want to just start right off the bat and say that I don't think, there's probably anybody who's better qualified to talk about this subject than John who's in the industry, because John is a chemist and he does own A company that deals in chemicals, but the products that we're gon na talk about today are not products that refrigeration technology sells, and I think, there's probably a pretty good reason for that that we're gon na get into nobody in this industry is completely unbiased. It's very difficult to find anybody who's completely unbiased, but I talked to John in the past about this. I'm still on the fence on some of these things honestly, but John speaks passionately about it and obviously from an educated standpoint. So I just want to put that out there.

First, I'm going into this, knowing that this is going to be a little bit of a controversial conversation and I'm okay with that, because I think these the sorts of conversations we've got to have in the industry. So the topic on the table today is additives and we're gon na start with talking generally about acid, inhibiting additives so to tee this up. A lot of companies us included in certain circumstances will use acid inhibitors in cases where there is known acid inside of a system, meaning we have a Burnout condition where we have stinky nasty black oil or an acid test kit is telling us that we definitely have Acid in the system and it's an older system, particularly with us - that's the only time we're gon na do it is if it's an older system of the life cycle isn't very long anyway. What are your thoughts on that? First of all, for all our listeners out there, you don't have to know any chemistry here, I'm going to keep everything very simple: you don't need to know anything about any chemical materials.

I'm gon na keep it very simple. You don't have to take notes and just use common sense realize that a lot of this stuff is sold through what I call creative marketing - or another word for word - is total BS. Just listening to a commercial today, we're drug company is touting a new cure for an illness and I'll. Tell you all about the drug, what it cures and then at the end of the commercial it says.

Well, here's all the different ways: it'll also kill you we're all familiar with those commercials and with creative marketing. They'll tell you about all the problems that occurs, but they forget to tell you how it's gon na kill your system in the end. So keep that in mind: whenever ever you read some marketing material on some additive, some wonder cure that they only give you half the story. So you make a good point.

I'm torn on this because it's like every company every product, everything out there has two sides to it. If I think about well, I mean just think about the two sides of Brian or like, if you did a highlight reel of my life, I'd look like a superhero, but if you took all my lowest moments, I would look like a total villain. So I guess we all have these elements of our businesses or our products that are good or bad or could be misused or could problems, and all that and of course marketing by its very nature, nobody's gon na highlight the negative side of their products. But my sense is, is that you feel like this additive market is an especially insidious application of this kind of concept, definitely where all these additives really originate, or from the automotive side.

On the DIY and they're, the easiest group cultivate lock in your auto parts store and you got an air conditioning problem and they'll might have a can of something you put in and it's gon na cure. It was alright as long as they stayed on the automotive side, but now they have gone full-fledged into our industry, the commercial side, but got ta understand where all the stuff really originated, and what you don't know is that the reason they're here on the commercial side Is because they got kicked out on the automotive side, so they had to find a new market alright. So let's start with something very specific, so we've got acid in a system. I use one of these little acid test, kits which I know you have some thoughts on that as well, which is kind of a different topic.

But so I say alright. I've got an acid in my system, so what's wrong with me, pulling something off the shelf. That's an acid and neutralizer, so let's first talk about acid and neutralizers. Well, what could possibly be wrong with that right? I want to neutralize the acid in the system.

First thing you need to know is that when you combine refrigerant and oil, it actually has a slight acidity to it and, let's say, take a pH scale or 7 is neutral and the alkaline extreme is 14, and the acid extreme is 1 you're. Circulating fluids, refrigerated and oil are going to have a slightly acid signature, they're going to be around the pH of anywhere from 5.5 to 6.5. Now, that is where the fluids are most stable and all the metals and all the materials internally on your system are very happy at that pH and all the oil additives that are used are designed to work best in a slightly acidic environment. So when you add some of these concoctions out there into your system, you end up flipping the pH of your circulating fluids and what that does is for every action.

There is an opposite and equal reaction, so you're going to cause number one: the oil additives to possibly fall out or lose their function, such as a corrosion inhibitor or a facet II stabilizer. So the system is no longer happy and the metals are no longer happy and your windings, the insulation can become brittle and you can get gray masses of aluminum depositing in your oil. So, for the sake of simplicity, you need to keep that system slightly acidic and not resort to using anything. That's gon na flip.

The pH first thing that I want to anchor down is that when you're saying it can affect the additives that are in the oil, what you're saying is the factory additives that are constituent parts of the oil, that's in that Copeland, compressor or whatever. It is that it's designed to be in it that, when you change the pH of the environment, either neutral or potentially slightly alkaline, that that can negatively impact some of those factory additives exactly you can just disable them all together or just cause a reaction to where You have sludge type particles forming in the oil okay, but there is a recognition because the old saying used to be it's nothing but refrigerant and oil. That's all we're supposed to have in the system, but we are recognizing that there is some things that the manufacturers add to that oil. That is not just oil right, correct.

Well, the people that prepare the oil for your OEMs or your compressor manufacturers. They design additive systems for additive packages, so they will be compatible with all the metals and that they will protect all the metals and all these additives are stable. That means they don't break down and cause any problems, such as restrictions and other chemical reaction byproducts. That can be harmful to the compressor.

So all these additives are thoroughly tested. They go through compressor life testing and that's how it's all designed to work. So we talked about the acid neutralizer, so an acid neutralizer is changing the ph of the oil. That's what it's doing is it's taking it from acid to neutral or slightly alkaline pH, and we talked about this whole idea of pH alkaline versus acidic in coil cleaners, and I guess the thing that we all forgot have to get into our heads is: is that There's a certain pH that it should be, and anything other than this should be isn't good.

It's not like you can just make things more alkaline, and then that makes everything happy and copacetic right. If you make it more alkaline than that also causes problems, then yeah flipping. The pH is not a good idea in any type of chemical system. If I had a hydraulic brake system, hydraulic brake, fluid is a little acidic and that's why you don't see any additives for brake fluid because that can really mess someone up after they lose their brakes or Ethio rings out of the cylinders or whatever so you'll see In critical systems, no additives are ever used.

Now, let's talk a little bit about another product, because then some people will say: okay. Well, we don't use a neutralizer because we get that that's a problem. So instead we'll use a scavenger. That's a term! That's out there and acid scavenger, so is that ok then well, those are usually alcohols or alcohols.

Solvent combinations and alcohols have been proven to be detrimental to a system, alcohols and solvents. They can cause your windings to become very brittle course. We know what's gon na happen after that, and alcohol also tends to attack aluminum and the solvents also attack aluminum, and you end up with these gray masses of aluminum, actually aluminum particles in your oil. So that's why I would advise against that.

Also, as alcohols tend to be very hydrophobic, and we all know what hydro scopic means, it means it readily absorbs moisture from the atmosphere, and if that product is packaged in a plastic bottle, not metal or glass, it's been absorbing moisture and the acid formation. You think that you're eliminating is actually you're, contributing more moisture to form more acid. A lot of the manufacturers talk about the idea that they convert acids to salts that then are caught in the line. Dryer, that's a common thing that they say and again I'm in this sort of this position.

Where I'm not a chemist, I don't have a deep understanding of these things and you'll bring it up all like, because some people will say well. These salts are a problem and then others who sell these products will say. No. The salts are okay, because they're designed that way to get caught in the filter dryer or what are your thoughts on that? Well, I can sit in beginning with every action.

There's a reaction, and it's often you cure one problem and you just substitute it for another future problem, and I would say that it's that future problem, you want to avoid you're, not only a chemist, but you also have worked as a contractor. You had your own contracting company. You've worked as a technician, so you kind of know both sides of this and I'm sure, you've dealt with burned-out compressors before that. Have the nasty black oil and the customer wants a new compressor and the things eight years old, and so you go out and you replace that compressor.

What do you suggest doing in those circumstances, to try to deal with the fact that you're gon na have a more acid environment than what it was originally designed for? The best cure there is, and always has been, is simply using a suction line. Dryer and a liquid line dryer with the dryer you're, not causing any actions that molecular sieve, is going to capture and hold any moisture and there's gon na be an aluminum oxide chemical in that dryer. That's gon na absorb and hold the acid. So there's no reaction.

Still the best cure out there for any burnout or to prevent any future burnout due to moisture or any type of air contamination you might get in the system, so line filter dryer only yeah, probably the dryers a lot cheaper than some of those concoctions out there. So you have, you, know: they're sort of gon na be a little bit more labor involved, but at least podcasts are all about hey. What's the right way, what's the proper way for treating a Burnout and it's very simple and it's very old and it's time tested and true if the dryer is simplest and easiest way to eliminate acid and moisture so our standard protocol look? Is a lot of people? Ask this and they don't believe that we actually do this, but we really do is whenever we have a known acid situation. Not only do we replace the liquid line drier any factory liquid line, dryers, replace those with a new liquid line dryer and then we add a suction line, dryer at a location depending if it's a heat pump or not.

Obviously, we have to choose the location appropriately and then we go back several weeks later and remove that suction line dryer and then straight either put another one in if it's still an acid environment that we can prove or we remove it and straight pipe. It back, which is obviously very labor-intensive, and it's difficult to be competitive when you have to do all that, and I think that's the reason why a lot of companies would rather have something in a bottle, though they can dump in and then forget it, and they Don't have to make that return. Trip sounds plausible to me, except for the fact I know what the chemical makeup of these concoctions are, and I say they're some of the worst chemicals you could ever in your introduce into a system, and it's not just my opinion. Most of the knowledge I have of system chemistry, I learned from a book called fluorocarbon, refrigerant handbook and you can source everything.

I'm saying from that book. I mean it's based on all the prior ASHRAE research papers and contributing articles from OMS and compressor manufacturers that have thoroughly tested all this stuff and come up with the best solution that still boils down to filter dryers works. For me, like I said, because it's what we already do now, one thing that you and I talked about at great length - is this idea of testing, though, because you still have this challenge of even if you do use, filter dryers kind of step. One is a lot of guys will go and put in a suction dryer and then leave it in for all eternity and there's pretty much.

No compressor manufacturer who's. Gon na say that that's how you should handle that I mean at the very minimum. You should be going back and testing to make sure that it's not restricted after you install it and then most tell you that you should be removing it to get those contaminants out of the system when you had a known burnout situation. But how do you suggest going through testing because we talked a little bit about some of the popular tests that are out there on the marketplace and some of their limitations when you're testing for acid in the system and the working system? What you want to test is the oil you don't want to test the refrigerant.

The refrigerant stays very, very clean. It doesn't absorb much moisture. It's all. The contaminants are going to be in your oil phase and so people that have these vapor testing kits or devices they're kind of useless, because 90 % of all your contaminants are going to be in the oil.

So what you want to do is you want to sample the oil for contaminants, not the refrigerant, and the oil will tell the full complete story and in fact, if you want to get really really technical, I mean you're working on some really critical refrigeration. You want to take an oil sample and actually have it analyzed by a lab to tell you exactly what's going on as far as removing the suction line dryer, I don't think that's really necessary, be I always burnouts used both the suction and liquid line. Dryer and I left the suction line dryer always in there, and when I bought condensing units like kokum and condensing units, they would already come with a suction lining, dryer hai-yah and a liquid line, dryer and sight glass that be already piped into the condensing and straight From cup Lenore Kramer hatecraft wherever you're buying you, the condensing units from that was back. When I was practicing refrigeration, I don't know if they still do it.

I know they're always trying to cut cost, but they always came with that extra added protection of the suction line jointer - and I kind of like that, because it's gon na really prevent any particles, if not moisture and acid, from entering your compressor. I'm a big fan of always just leaving and using a suction line. Dryer yeah, that's an area where most air conditioning manufacturers. I think this is sort of a division between refrigeration and air conditioning, because there are example we work in grocery store, refrigeration and well in those applications you're leaving suction line dryers in all the time.

That's just a part of what you do. You leave them in you change the cores if you have a pressure drop, but in air conditioning most of manufacturers are going to tell you that they don't want you leaving a section line dryer in there, and the reason is is because the circumstances under which a Section line, dryer would be installed, are contaminated circumstances, and so what tends to happen is a technician will go out put in a section line dryer after a burnout, and then they just never check it again and once you start to get any significant pressure drop across That section line dryer that can impact your refrigerant density, which can then impact the cooling of your compressor, which can then burn out the compressor. So that's the challenge there you're right in that if we were putting in suction line dryers and then regularly checking the pressure drop across them or if we were putting them in when they were brand new, and there was no real concern that you would have significant Contamination, solid contamination that would block the dryer, then you'd be fine, but the challenge comes down to the fact that all these dryers have some screens in them and those tend to get blocked. When you have severe burn outs, that then can pretty quickly damage a new compressor and that's the challenge there.

But I agree with you in refrigeration: it's just pretty much a good standard practice and in those cases, just leave it in, but then just check your pressure drop regularly back when I started in early 70 80's, the difference between an air-conditioning mechanic and refrigeration mechanic, the Refrigeration mechanic actually owned and used a vacuum pump commentator can usually mechanic would just blow the system through with our 2010. Just there. It's clean and dry start her up all right, but I've used left so many suction line dryers on air-conditioning systems. I've never had any problems with them.

I've in 17 years of doing air conditioning work, maybe replace one or two suction line dryers where I had a pressure drop but for the most part I've never seen. Pressure drops across suction line dryers even after the nastiest burnouts got to realize that when you have a burnout most of that carbon residue is in the first 10 feet of your suction line. And if you make a habit of replacing a significant amount of suction line. Before you connect it to your compressor, you eliminate a lot of that carbon sludge.

Maybe it's all in a matter of technique. I think a lot of it is yeah and when you add in the fact that a lot of technicians aren't flowing nitrogen Multi braise and that can also contribute to some of the carbon buildup. That may be a lot of it and a lot of this stuff. You can test it in labs and that is valid, but when it comes to field practice, sometimes we do things that are not enough and then sometimes you do things that are overkill, because we don't really know where the lines are drawn.

I can tell you I've early in my career before I had my own company and even the first several years of my own company, I left section dryers in all the time. That was the standard practice. That was what everybody did, and then you had some bulletins that were coming out and some best practices that were being preached about needing to return and remove them. That's what we're doing right now, but that could very easily change as you learn about products, and you learn about what actually matters I mean a perfect example would be.

When POA first came out, everybody said you can have no mineral oil. In with your POA, I mean it is a disaster, it's going to turn into an atomic bomb and then later on. Nowadays, a lot of people are saying a little bit of mineral oil isn't really a big problem. A lot of manufacturers are saying that so we are evolving yeah.

I think you learn as you go yeah. I can see the temptation for using an additive after a burnout, because you just want to make sure you're not coming back to that system again, but I think that's where it gains all its appeal. It's that extra added peace of mind or insurance. But you read some of the Copeland research stuff and some of the recommendations and they'll tell you right out, and you could look up some of the Copeland service manuals and procedures.

They'll tell you straight up. There's no system that hasn't adequately be cleaned after a burnout by just using a suction line. Dryer and oh the glove line. Dryer it's in there just filter through their service manuals and you'll, see it, and I believe that reason they put that in there is.

There are so many different concoctions out of there that they don't want to have any warranty issues. So I'm trying to think of what an alternative procedure would be. That's a good process because you bring up the question about testing oil and the problem with that is that it's challenging to do especially in air conditioning suppose you, a small stuff, it's tough to test oil. So after you have a running system, it's easy to test once you pull the compressor out, so that would be fairly easy.

You pull the old compressor out. You test the oil. Ok, it has acid. So now I know I need to put in a suction dryer, or would you say if it's a bad compressor just put in a suction dryer and then maybe, instead of going back and replacing the suction dryer, maybe just go back and do a pressure drop test.

Two weeks later and just make sure you don't have any pressure drop, do you think that might be an adequate replacement or would you suggest retesting the oil, because at that point I don't really know how you would do that I'll give a little product plug here? We have a check, mate, acid and moisture test kit, and one of our tubes is exclusively for testing the oil and you just milk. A few drops off the suction line and the indicator on there will turn any one of six different colors. That will tell you the degree to which your oil is contaminated and your oil will always have slight amount of contamination and in the form of small amounts of moisture small amounts of acidic compounds, because naturally the fluids are slightly acidic and we have a test kit That kind of helps resolve or offers a little field test kit that can help you in deciding whether you need to train choice, dryers or not after a Burnout or capper mana burn out a future burnout, interesting okay, so I'm doing this on the fly, but this Is how I do a lot of things? This is how I make a lot of decisions in life to is just sort of thinking through it and then coming up to a conclusion. So I guess the way you could do it would be.

Alright, you've got a failed compressor. You pull the compressor out test. The oil oil is not acidic. Okay, at that point, if the oil is not acidic, would you still suggest putting in a section line dryer, or I mean this - is your opinion obviously, but would you put in a section line dry, or would you not put it in if you didn't test anything Odd with it at all, from my experience every time I used a suction line dryer, I would never have a repeat compressor failure, so I didn't care whether it was a lot compressor or bad internal, equaliser valve or bad valves.

I would, as a standard practice, always put in a suction line dryer, and that was my way of giving adequate assurance that I knew when I left that job - I probably wouldn't be back here to do another compressor job in it. It's just from my service experience. That's what I learned. That is a way that I have done it in the past.

Again, you just hear so many different things. You talk to people, you trust and they tell you something and then you do it for a while and until you get new information. So an interesting way to do that then, would be just make a standard practice, do a suction, dryer and then maybe go back after a couple weeks is just a follow-up call, like you said, take a couple drops off your suction line and to check may test Your ask the levels: gesture pressure drop. If you don't have pressure drop and you got no ass, then just leave it be.

If you do have pressure drop and you are seeing some increased acid content potentially or either/or, then you would go ahead and replace the section drier at that point, but not worry so much about then removing it. I've replaced both dryers at that point, both of them right. Oh yeah. Definitely you know my service experience.

I have maybe less than a handful of units that ever needed that second change out of dryers, just based on my experience. I'm gon na take a quick pause here and I want to mention a little bit more about what I was talking about earlier. Aero Asus and the Nano and bipolar and how you can use their petri dish kits as part of your process if a customer's interested in indoor air quality products, as you know, I'm not a pushy sales guy, I don't really push indoor air quality as part of Our sales process, but it is a good thing to add in to let your customers know when you're on a service, call that you do have some options that you can do some assessments on their home. I definitely recommend using indoor air quality products like the Nano and the bipolar as part of a more whole home assessment, where you're looking through the attic you're checking insulation, you're checking for proper boot, sealing checking to make sure the ventilation is venting properly out of the Attic or crawlspace those sorts of things I don't like to just throw products at it, but the Nano and the bipolar are great products that you can offer and they do work and one way to prove that they work is.

You can use a petri dish. We fill it with this product is like a gel. It's called an agar. You add that into the dish you leave it out for about five minutes, just open to the air you seal it up and then for five days.

You incubate it and you see what grows. If the customer doesn't like what's growing in the air, then they can put in products like the bipolar or the Nano give it a while and then do it again and they can show the results. And it's really a neat thing that you can do that kind of shows the benefit of the product and you can get those through air oasis if you're interested in those, then I would encourage you to go to arrow Asus comm /go fill out your information. Tell them what you're interested in maybe you're interested in the petri dishes, maybe you're interested in trying it out for personal use, one of these products in your own home.

They work with technicians and contractors all the time on that and they're great people. They make these right in Amarillo, Texas, salt of the earth human beings, Eero asus comm board / go. Let me ask you this real quick, because this came up a few years back. There was an issue with the compressor type brand will remain.

Unnamed manufacturer of the OEM comes back and says: hey. There was an issue with an acid inhibitor in this oil, and so now we're gon na suggest that you use this part. Number part number goes back to something that's been used for years out. There called zero all ice as a one trade name it was under and they suggested that you used that to fix gummed up expansion valves, so expansion valves were being gummed up by what they claimed was a corrosion inhibitor, a de tevinter, the oil by the compressor Manufacturer, yes, so this is the one case where the OEM says to us now use this additive that isn't off-the-shelf additive, that this company has been pitching for a long time and that sort of brought some legitimacy to the idea of using that additive.

In the first place, I hardly even know this additive does. It did work in a lot of cases to free up expansion valves, but me included. Most of us don't really understand what was going on there. Do you have any thoughts on that? Oh yeah, I've looked at that problem extensively and the problem was that the company supplying the OEM spec oil either put too much corrosion inhibitor in or they substituted the corrosion inhibitor for a foreign brand of the same type of corrosion inhibitor.

In other words, corrosion inhibitors are very, very expensive: okay they're, the probably the most expensive attitude that is in the oil and may be to say, cost. They went overseas and got some corrosion yeah, but are supposedly the same molecule and bought it from India or China. And, of course, the purity wasn't there, and it was the impurities in that corrosion inhibitor, that they substituted, that was causing the problems and where all your problems are going to occur is at the lowest point temperature point in the refrigeration system, which is going to be Right, the exit of the expansion valve: that's where all your solid materials are going to precipitate out and since it's a corrosion inhibitor, it's going to leave a residue now as far as curing the problem, all you needed to do was add about 2 to 4 ounces Of raw p OE oil to the system to dilute it back, dilute the amount of corrosion inhibitors that they accidentally put in it's kind of like. If you over sweetened your iced tea.

Well, I would take raw iced tea, unsweetened iced tea and pour it back in. So I take the sweetness out now. There wasn't anything on the Shelf that was raw P, Oh eat, the p OE you would buy and it can already had corrosion inhibitor packaged in there. So you weren't going to dilute it by adding any more p OE oil, but there were like aftermarket additives that basically were nothing but mineral oil and foaming agent, and you can maybe get some success by diluting it back with that.

So it was a matter of diluting back and getting your attitudes, your corrosion inhibitors back in balance. Maybe a lot of them didn't dilute back, because the corrosion inhibitor already precipitated out and became so hard that nothing was gon na. Take it out other than the solvent, and I know that a lot of people we sorted to using the SEP Co 88, which is kerosene and left a good cleaning solvent. I think these compressor manufacturers, by telling you to buy this off-the-shelf product, we're just trying to buy some time and save some money on dishing out warranty, repair tickets and replacing expansion valves at their cost.

That's my take on it and we looked at that and it was kind of a at first. Usually when there's a factory problem, they'll blame the technician. Probably your fault, you didn't evacuate it enough or you did something you didn't put a right dryer in there. They usually blame it on the technician and it took him a while to come around and really fess up, and I think that was they prolonged the problem and it got too immense and they were thinking dollars and cents.

So you mentioned solvent products, there's a whole class of products that have hit the market that purport to help. You return oil from the evaporator coil back to the compressor and improve evaporator performance. I mean there is all these and a lot of them almost kind of come across like multi-level marketing companies. They have a Leo salesmen in your area and he's gon na do a demonstration showing that your delta t increases or whatever i've.

Never given any of that stuff at the time of day, because it just sounds so much like snake oil, but is there any truth? To that i mean. Let's say you have an evaporator coil, that's logged with mineral oil. It's got a lot of mineral oil. That's gotten into that of a vertical.

Are there some products that are returning that and is that solvents, or is that just some p, OE or something else, hydrocarbons that are returning that what's going on there? Okay, in that sense, yeah, you can get oil to return back to the compressor by using a solvent, but in the same light all you're doing is you're reducing the viscosity of oil, so it will flow better and that's a pretty simple trick. A lot of these people out there with the additives will have a solvent and then they'll have a foaming agent, along with compressor oil in their little miracle can and the solvent of course, thins the oil out you lose viscosity. You know possibly has some lubrication issues down the line, but the most interesting ingredient is they put a foaming agent in there and what that does is, when you add this additive to your compressor. The foaming agent calls us to your oil in your compressor, the foam and it starts foaming up the sides of the walls of your compressor and what that does is it make sure compressor run quieter.

Of course, unknowingly. You think we'll wow, this compressor. It's running really smooth and really it's just a sleight of hand. It's just a magic trick that causing your older phone and that's dampening the sound of your compressor.

It's an old old trick, used back in automotive days when they had additives to where it would quiet, noisy, vowels and lifters, and what it was. It was just a foaming agent and the foaming agent was right at the top where your valves are and it would dampen the sound. You still have noisy valves lifters, it's just that you couldn't hear them because of all the foam up there. I imagine also that when you have a foaming agent that potentially it's throwing some oil into places that maybe it wasn't going before, which could potentially temporarily reduce some noise just from the actual parts moving together.

But again when you're foaming. It you're also greatly decreasing its viscosity, so it's not gon na necessarily do the job that it's intended to do, but I'm just I have this kind of cartoon go on in my head thinking about if you're foaming oil up that you're, probably getting it into some Spots that it wasn't previously getting yes, in fact, actually there was a study done by a really smart guy to come, see guys named Lysander, Burke or peon, something like that, and he actually was doing experiments where he said that oil foaming could be beneficial under certain Circumstances under certain load conditions and it got pretty technical, but in conclusion he said that oil foaming was still not desirable and that only under certain circumstances, certain load conditions that it was beneficial. So there was a good side to it, but mostly a bad side to it, because all the viscosity of your oil gets trapped in the foam foam is much more stickier and denser because that's where all your viscosity goes, I'm kind of thinking all right. I guess if you had a low refrigerant velocity problem like say you had a system that was running low load, dirty evaporator, coils air flow problems, which is a really common problem in our industry.

And so now you have oil return problems and so you've got evaporator. That's logged with mineral oil, and so you add, is something an additive, something in a can that has a foaming agent and then it has either a solvent or some thing else. That's designed for oil return. I imagine that in the short term that might actually show some results, because you're stripping some of the oil out of that evaporator coil, that is gon na increase your heat transfer and then, if you're, helping it get back and then you're foaming it into that compressor.

You potentially would have a short-term result of better heat transfer, quiet air compressor, maybe even lower amperage, but in the long run. What you've done is you've diluted that oil you've decreased its viscosity, and so it's not gon na do the job that it was necessarily originally intended to do. It may do some other things that became kind of secondary results, but the core job that it's supposed to do there, that compressor, it's probably not going to do as well as it should. I don't know that that's necessarily true, but that makes sense to me that may be the reason why some people swear by some of the results.

It's like a lot of things. It's like washing a condenser, coil and then testing it. While it's wet and saying look washing your condenser coil just dropped your amperage by 5 amps. But then, if you go back 15 minutes later, it's right back to where it was before.

There's a lot of little tricks like that in the industry, and this sounds kind of like one of those sorts of tricks. I think you've got it nailed. Are you sure you're not a chemist with that 100 %? Definitely not a chemist at all, but I do like to think about how machines work and it bothers me to no end when they won't tell me what's in this stuff. That's been a challenge that I've had in the past as I've talked about different products and use different products.

It just nobody will tell you what's in it, and so I can't do my own research and that drives me insane and I understand on one hand why they wouldn't because of course many of these chemicals are very inexpensive chemicals and they make wicked profit margins on Them selling them as a particular brand. I mean that isn't to say that they don't work, they don't work, probably for other reasons, but it's an interesting consideration. Let's move on to the final additive and we've gone through a lot of different additives here, but the final one, and probably one of the most popular is the good old leak sealants and sometimes those will have a UV dye in them. So let's talk about those.

What are your thoughts on that? I think I already know, but let's hear it well, then again we go back to the automotive sectors where all this stuff started and when automotive, you got a rings that shrink and you got a shaft steel on the compressor but always leaks. It was a natural fit to have stop leaks, the automotive side until they started telling people that it wouldn't void. The factory warranty new car warranty well when they started locking up compressors and those compressors got back to GM Ford Chrysler. They said uh-uh no way.

Anybody who puts stop leak in a perfe nishan system in our course we will void the warranty and the only cure is to replace every component in the system compressor, lyons, evaporator everything needs to be replaced because that's the only way you will rid the system of The stop leaks now, that's where it started. They basically got kicked out of the automotive industry. So then they came over to the HVAC side because they needed another market and they got smart and they did not put the claim on the cans or the bottoms. That would avoid compressor.

Warranties me came up with well, you only use it as a last resort for something that's old and probably needs to replace any way to get the people by for another season or two and that's the strategy that has worked for them and it's kept them out Of trouble chemically wise, basically, what these stop leaks are you're introducing solid particles into the system, and the theory would be that these fine powdery, solid particles would travel with the oil and become trapped in the leak site. Now everyone thinks a leak as a whole. Well, it's really not a hole unless you drilled a hole or punctured it with a nail. Usually, a leak is a path.

It is zigs and zags before it actually comes to a leak site, and the theory is that these particles get trapped inside there and they have the consistency of a rock they're. Very, very fine. Now they'll tell you a story that is creative marketing, which we talked about earlier, which I call total BS. That's well, it's gon na harden when it senses the air or moisture outside the week and with a little bit of reasoning and a little bit of experience that doesn't happen in the real world.

If you had a small week, let's say you're soldering up a system, and you have a little bit of pressure on the system that you didn't know about. You're soldering, a joint even with the smallest amount of pressure and heavy heat and heavy solder. That solder joint will never seal they'll always be a little doughnut that forms, because pressure wants to get out. I'm sure everyone's done that or they've had a little bit of pressure on a system and they're trying to solder it up and that joint won't saw it or up it keeps popping little hole.

Well, that's the reason why they can't work in theory at all, because even the slightest bit of pressure it'll find its way out. There's no way boy stur can get inside a leak is what I'm trying to say. You'll just always get a doughnut. If there is moisture surrounding the leak it's the refrigerant will escape, and if the leak sealer absalom does harden with moisture, you still have the leak that hole, but it'll form a doughnut around it.

So that is how they work. Some of those leaks healers out there are placebos, I've tested all of them, and this goes back to the 80s when these leaks stopped leak, started coming out, exposing moisture cure and then there's others that claim that their use a different science, and we found some of These leak sealers are just nothing but mineral oil or alkyl benzene and hey these works, or it doesn't work, and it surprises me I'll, go on like a Facebook or HVAC talk and they'll say well. This particular brand really worked well for me and we haven't had any problems with compressors, locking up or expansion, barrels seizing - and I know what's in the product. I know the product is nothing more than mineral oil, so it tells a lot about service man's expectations and wishful thinking on their part.

We all want becsher that magic in a bottle. We all all want it to work yeah. So this is the one of all of them all the rest of them go by the wayside pretty easily. For me, because again, for example, with acid I mean the ideas you want the system to work with leak sealants.

I was always a absolutely no leak. Sealant guy for most of my career and then I was introduced to some products that were marketed as polymer free. I've tested some of the products that are the most aggressive on the market and mixed them with water and in the presence of oxygen. And you can see that they harden, and so I'm never gon na put those in my gauges.

I don't care if they work or not, because it's gon na damage something and then I've tested other products. I know you've talked about this another podcast too, and I've listened to that. So I know your stance on all this yeah, but it's interesting and I don't dispute it even actually, but there are some cases I did. An actual before-and-after on a small format carry leak where I visually looked at bubbles on the system before and after, and there was a significant decrease in it actually was still leaking slightly, but it was barely even discernible, whereas before I was getting visible bubbles using your Product big blue, good choice that okay.

Thank you that, to me told me this was an older system and in fact, in this case on that test, that I did, it was a customer who requested a product by name, and I initially said now. I don't really want to do that, and I said you know what this customer wants. It I'll use this as a test and there was definitely a significant decrease in leak rates. Now you thought about things like pressure and on/off time and all that I tried to kind of test him in similar circumstances.

Of course, it could just be completely that it was a just a fluke who knows, but there's been several people who have shown one of my friends, Cameron, Connelly, he's a big commercial, ammonia, chiller tech. I owns a company down in texas and he used a particular product, that's a non polymer product and he had been recharging his system every six months. He put it in and now it's been over a year and he hasn't had to recharge it. Those sorts of circumstantial evidences are what keep people using it, and I definitely fall in the category of somebody where I only use it.

If it's somebody who understands that it may not work, it's an older system and there choosing it as a possible way to get through a season or two. So I still have that. I'm doing exactly the same thing that you talked about, which is sort of relying on that possible placebo effect to say it seems to work. So what would you say to somebody who's like me who says I get what you're saying John.

I have no reason not to trust you. You have no dog in this fight. You've looked at it closer than I have, but I still seems like these things. Work in certain circumstances.

Is there any possible validity to that? Well, whenever you're circulating solids in your oil there's a chance that some of those particles can trap inside a leak path, and I don't think they would necessarily stop leak completely, they can slow down a leak. I've seen it I've had it. Oh, I have I've tested all this stuff in the field. I can see where we saw some slowing down of leaks and the thing about polymer non polymer.

None of them are polymers. Polymer was just a fancy word to use because no one understands what a polymer is, and so they fill the word polymer out there and then so. The next guy comes along and says because there's been some problems with the polymer Titan said: well, we don't have polymers well, none of them have polymers just a little chemical nerdy thing I'll just throw in there, but it takes me back to the first leak sealer. I ever saw - and that was really back to the 70s and what it was.

It was mineral oil and it was loaded with graphite and the graphite is doesn't dissolve in the oil. It's just black. The we're supposed to put this in your system and the graphite would travel with the oil and graphite so lubricant, so it can't lock up anything right, but the graphite would travel with the oil and would get trapped in the leak site and the graph I came In different particle sizes, so they're, big and small they're, all microscopic graphite is pencil and basically so. The problem with the graphite was that it's electrically conductive so within about three to six months of this graphite pounding against your windings as it returned back to the compressor.

In up worth a really really nasty burnout and the problem with that, because I ran into systems out there that had graphite leak sealers in there, the problem was: how do I get it out now? My customers lost a compressor. How do I get that stuff out and you're? Faced with the same situation? How do you get that product out? There's nothing that'll cure it, except replacing the entire system. Vaporators line set condensing unit. Everything needs to be replaced.

That's the whole problem now once you've painted yourself in a corner. How do you get out, and that is something that technician needs to realize, especially if it's a system eight to ten years old, still maybe have five years left in it. Gon na be a perplexing problem, for you always have that in the back of your mind that once it's in you can't get it out kind of where we land on this is that good, solid best practices are always the best place to be, and so that's Things on the acid side, that's things like using liquid line and section line dryers it's on the leak side, it's about having a leak detector that actually works, and we've talked a lot about that guys. They have these electronic leak detectors and they don't even know how to confirm that they're working properly and then it's doing your leak detection properly and it's using bubbles when bubbles are appropriate and it's using the proper strategies of how to fix leaks, repair, leaks properly.

I've been working a lot with solder well lately, looking at some of their products, for you know, repairing all different types of leaks, whether it's aluminum or aluminum, to copper all these different applications and really trying to actually fix things rather than solutions in a bottle. That's what we should always be seeking out wherever there's any possibility to do so, and what I like about refrigeration technologies is that you have always looked for real solutions rather than being attracted to chemical solutions that are easy ways to make a buck, but may paint You in the corner, in the long run where now you're stuck and you've, got something in the system that now you can't get rid of, and you have to use some creative salesmanship rather than good technician min ship, which is what we talked about here. You know nothin wrong with sales sales, isn't a crime as long as it's honest and truthful and based on good, sound science as much as we possibly can and in some cases were in positions where we do have to trust people, but is best possible trust. People who have proven themselves to be trustworthy, and I would consider John and refrigeration technologies to be a company like that.

So, thank you again, John for taking the time to do this and thank you for being what you have been to the industry which at this point, hopefully this isn't offensive. But I would call you the elder statesman of the HVAC chemicals industry. So your chemical - I like to end this by saying that all those listening, the only chemistry you really need to know is that nothing belongs in the system other than the proper oil and refrigerant. That's it.

That's all the chemistry you need to know in our industries and if you follow those rules, you'll never get in a situation where it's gon na zap you I had experience here several months ago, rise in the supply house and they said John. Can you help out this contractor and I said well, what's the problem he says: well, we put big sealer in a 25-ton system, operated a wing of a hospital and he's not their normal service guy. They called him out on emergency repair, so the guy put leak. Sealer in and chopped off the refrigerant and maybe a month later, the compressor locked up and it was a Linux system, so they called the limit service people out and they read the guys invoice main told the hospital they said.

This is not a Linux factory authorized repair, this guy, that did you, repair, is responsible for replacing your old system and the guy was pinned, he's pinned with a lawsuit, and I don't know if anything's ever settled since then, but he was looking at replacing at his.