And we are live. so we're going to give it a few minutes for a few people to come in here. but uh, we have just hijacked the official HVAC school computer I Feel like I'm doing something wrong here I Feel like I'm G to get in trouble. That's right if you're watching this on the HVAC School platform I'm Chris I'm from the HVAC overtime YouTube show I've got my co-host over here Adam Muffet Don't know if the camera is going to go over there Hi And then we have Chris Hughes from the Energy Conservatory and then we have Wes Davis from AA right here.

Okay, hello everybody! So we are currently live from the 2024 HVAC School Symposium and uh, it's it's uh, it's a bit overwhelming to me. I Guess that's an understatement. Maybe you know this is my I think this is my third. What about you guys? Since the beginning? since the beginning so this is your fifth number two, number two and then Adam Three you yeah? actually no.

maybe I've only been here two times. I think you've been here more than me I Don't know. yeah I introduced you to this crowd and the next thing you know, Adam's taking over and that's what I do best now. I follow Adam places I went into something the other day and I'm like I don't even know why I'm here actually I don't even know why I am staying at the place that I'm staying at and I think it's because of Adam So you know I got to ask you Chris why am I staying at the Animal House? Uh, we just needed to fill the Gap That makes sense.

That makes sense we were. We were brainstorming like we need one more payment. You know we need to get some shirts made. Be nice for somebody to pick up that he's got that.

California Money Yeah Title 24 money. So um, you know this is the second day of the Symposium uh it's so far been amazing. um this year I actually uh, am just enjoying the show and I actually have to say it's kind of nice just to be able to be an observer and actually, just, uh, hang out. You know you were talking about being overwhelming I think it's it's sort of both.

I mean you come in, you see faces and names. You think holy cow, these this person's here. that person's there but it's also I think Brian did a good job of keeping it very uh, intimate if I can use that word to say. it's a smaller group and so you can meet people and they everybody's so friendly.

Yeah, it's it's a it's a joy. This is a community. Um, this is. uh, this community has been here but the community is growing and there's a good group of us right now and we all help each other.

We all bring each other up and you know we have manufacturers that compete with other manufacturers that are here, but that that is irrelevant. This is a community and it's about bringing the community up. Um, and everybody genuinely wants to be here. That's what I've noticed So Adam What you know? So if you guys don't know Adam Muffet here my co-host he has really been pushing hard and um bu you know he has been really excelling in the building science community in the HVAC community.

and um, you've been working with HVAC school now? uh, you know. Oh, we're gonna lift the curtain here. Adam's been working behind the scenes with Hbac school and um, you know, writing articles Tech tips uh and Adam you know I don't think I've said this publicly but Adam just did a presentation at Ahr and uh now I didn't get to see the presentation live but Adam ran through the presentation with myself before and I was blown away. Uh, it was a story and you know what's interesting is Adam went through this process over the last what year and a half when you were doing the passive house.

Um so I got to hear the passive house stories. you know in my messenger, you know every week oh man, I did this. Oh man. I did this Well then what Adam did at Ahr was he recapped everything and put it into a 45 minute session where he explained the whole process.

Can you talk a little bit about that? Adam um it. I don't know. it was a it was like a labor of love type deal and it's funny because somebody here sat through the presentation and he asked like how how can I replicate and teach people what you did and like I'm like I don't know and it all. It started several years back like taking everything started for me when I took the Jack rise online.

uh ACA training um that was like the beginning of everything for me and um it took me a while to get through that and that was I mean anyone? you I'm sure you've gone through it right? It's it's a long process typee deal but like there's so much information in there and that's like the beginning of the foundation of everything that I did you know how long ago was that? would you say I don't know a couple years ago? Yeah now I I have a question and you know you have been bettering yourself. Adam Chris You have been bettering yourself and you have made a pivot in your career. It's it's been a while now since you've made your pivot. Adam You're currently making a pivot right and a lot of that has to do with Adam and Chris being part of this community.

And Wes you know you with the company you're with. You know that the the content that they're consuming, the the, the technical books, and everything that they're consuming. that's that's responsible for this pivot with these guys. Thank you! I I Feel like I'm being given a lot of credit for something I didn't do, but you're part of it and I'm happy to be a part of it I Really am? Uh, ACC is doing a lot of great things and Adam mentioned Jack Rise God Rest his soul no longer with us but he gave so much and that's what a lot of this industry is about is the giving you mentioned earlier.

A lot of Cooperative efforts, the rising tide lifting all boats I think uh, that's what this is all about. You know, uh, it's funny because Adam's been using that phrase a lot lately. you know, when? Uh, and if you guys didn't get to watch Brian's presentation yesterday at the end of the show I Highly suggest. If you haven't already gotten the virtual ticket, go get the virtual ticket for the Symposium $26 I Mean my goodness, you get access for a couple months after the show I Think Totally worth it.

Watch Brian's presentation at the end of the show. Um, but you know we all get caught up in this this funk that starts to happen sometimes and uh, Even Adam and I get caught up in this funk and we've been encouraging each other and he's been using that phrase, you know, um, quite often when you know we're like, why are we doing this? Why are we struggling So why are we we helping this many people and then like, wait, but we're trying to help the industry. we're trying to help each other. Now you know it may not be myself.

you know, lifting up the entire industry. just myself. No, but you know I'm a part. You're a part.

we're all a part and we're coming together and we're raising everybody up. And and that's the community that we're talking about. And you know Brian said it. And I've said this a few times lately too.

As much as I despise social media, social media is responsible for why we are here right now. The way that we are. Yeah, it really is. Adam and I would not be friends.

Yeah, we would not be friends if it wasn't for social media. I wouldn't know that there's another person that thinks like me out there unless I just ran into them at a supply house across the country across the country, across the world. we're communicating with people all around the world and this is this is amazing. Um I Highly suggest that all of you out there if you haven't already, keep your eyes out.

Follow HVAC School and pay attention. Brian Will be posting when they release the tickets for next year's 2025. Symposium You definitely want to get your tickets! So yeah the uh the classes yesterday everything was great. Everything I sat through was great.

Um you know the one that Brian did was amazing. Um and then also you had quite the awesome presentation as well too. Um Chris here with the energy Conservatory um uh Russ King Steve Rogers They they talked a little bit about like heat pump sizing what's to come and a little bit about the new manual s right which I'm really interested when is that coming out soon? Uh, it just kills me. Uh, what we wanted to do was to make it available for free online.

so the people, contractors, code officials, whoever could see it and getting that platform ready to go and and getting it posted is taken just a little bit longer than we' hoped but we're very very close. I'm I'm hopeful that uh, if not today, then next week early we'll be able to say hey, go here you can see this standard and make it and have it free. Uh Russ King Wrote the users guide so the standards pretty concise, pretty tight on the requirements, and then the users's guide can explain and provide examples and give illustrations and discuss things a little bit more in depth and so that's being reviewed and we'll put both together. We'll have the standard and then what we call the the users guide that all be published as one document that'll be available for purchase.

Andor uh available online? So yeah that's coming soon. So I was kind of want to talk about like you were mentioning the Symposium for next year. Get your tickets like for anybody who's ever been to like a U, let's say a noon kickoff football game. you do some like early tailgating.

You know you get out there the fogs there like when I showed up this morning. all I could be reminded of is like it's like I'm at LSU Stadium and I'm walking up to the stadium and it's like you feel the Calm before the storm like you're going to a big game, right? That's what it felt like for me this morning. You know it's about the you know what I'm saying you get there's uh, it's energy in the air. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

the VI's fun. I Always say that everybody wants to be here and they genuinely do. You know everybody wants to be here. The other thing too is that if you do come to these events and if you're at this event right now, if you're watching this don't feel left out there is.

There is stuff going on every night with all different groups of people and and there's always something to do. You know? and and even if you have a plan like you know, we have plans tonight, but there's a party going on here. there's a party going on there and section here sponsored thing there people are bouncing around. you know going to all these different functions and it's just a genuine good time.

Uh, if you do get to make it in person to the Symposium make sure you get lots of rests which has been impossible. You need rest. You need to be. Uh, you know you're going to need a vacation after the Symposium That's that's a pretty good thing to say.

Definitely want that. Sunday day of rest afterwards? Absolutely yes. So you don't call in sick on Monday So um, absolutely right. So before the stream.

typically before the stream. for those that don't know, uh, on the overtime platform? Um, you know we. We're always having conversations in banter and and and oftentimes and it's funny because I cut Chris Hughes off and he's like dude, you just you just cut me off and I said stop talking. wait till The Show Goes live.

That's a that's a typical thing that happens on overtime now I know I said that to you but I forgot why I said that to you. What were we talking about? You were talking about talking too much. Oh oh okay, yes, yes, yeah and he does that. Okay so so we were talking about dead air.

Yes and and like I don't know maybe I just didn't have enough sleep but you said dead air and I'm like oh, that's catchy I'm like we should use that somewhere and I was like what could we name in Air Conditioning Dead Air? Yes and I was thinking well there's dead band and air doesn't move. Move right? because that's when your is like, well that's that's when the Ed is dead, the air is dead. You're not circulating house is you know? I Like to think the house is in a chaos State because nothing's controlling it at that point the air is dead. Is there a point that you know in a duct system when you have turbulent flow and you have a spot where maybe within the duct work the air isn't moving so much.

would that be dead air in that spot? I wouldn't say dead air. Okay, from what I've learned in that it's like it may not be moving in the direction you want it. Yeah, right? Like like good example of that is um, ashery has some some flow profiles right? like in an air handler. Let's say you put a plenum that's 20 by 20 with an opening that's 12 by 20 when the air shoots out of that air handler.

I Think what you're thinking is like that little pocket to the right side. Right like that. that's dead air but it's probably just swirling on control. And let me say that's the spot that you know before I understood anything that I would always insert my probe to measure the air.

you know and it's like why this, it's not moving. but then you move it over 6 in and it's like now it's moving too fast. what's going on? Yeah, so that's like a what's happening is like you have so much velocity pressure coming out of the air handler right there that you're actually could. You can create the negative pressure right there in the swirl.

So if you you're if you're ever taking that pressure measurement, you get Negative in Supply It's because that velocity is just ejecting out of that blower and we did a research project this at TC and uh we figured out that it was like w were you there for that I think I thought you were but it was like it was like three feet until like and it was only one system but like we tested it took about three feet to where the fan profile. We figured out where the air was fully developed and if you don't want to know what fully developed means, catch the class that me and Steve are going to be doing soon. The content? there you go. I Like that.

uh the whole dead air thing though. like when if a house is uh in a chaotic State Like you said like uh, air flow is not moving and I think a lot of HVAC guys like residential guys are like I want that thermostat to be satisfied and I want it to shut off. That's exactly the opposite of what my goal is like. You know if a customer calls me, it's like it's running non-stop What's the temperature in the house? 70 you know or 75? Sounds good to me like my job is done right.

Like you want to move the comfortable air like you want to be surrounded by comfortable air. You don't want to shut off the comfortable air. I Do like the idea of expounding on that stagnant and dead that tying those two together, there's something. There's something there.

So oh good. just real quick. Side Story and it kind of applies but it doesn't Uh, we were waiting for uh Rob minck to give his presentation yesterday and we said he said hey David Richardson ought to do like 10 minutes of standup while we're waiting for the everybody to get in the room and so then we started thinking about each vac jokes and and it's reminded me of the Dead air story and coming up with we were coming up with stupid morning stuff but that's a whole other story but stagnant and dead I I like the idea of going somewhere with with that um on a on a flip note I just had a a something that popped in my head that in in your presentation yesterday. Chris when you were doing things you know I kind of leaned over to Adam and I said something that I've been thinking about lately now.

I'm not not the person to stand up and really make these points I don't know, maybe not. I don't feel like I'm qualified to do this, but my question is when it comes comes to the residential side, right? and I guess this applies to commercial too When you guys when you were doing your presentation you guys were talking about um you know the the load calculations you were talking about sizing equipment, sizing heat pumps, letting customers know um and what popped in my head was at what point is it our responsibility to educate the consumer or the customer on what comfortable really is I I Know that's a difficult one because you know everybody says hey, let the customer come out here, let the customer tell us what they like about the system but what if they don't know what comfortable is and the reason why I bring this up because there was a a conversation and I'm not going to name names but there was a conversation about an article that Adam posted and the argument against the article that Adam posted. Adam posted an article about heat pumps and the main argument that I get from this person that was pushing back on what Adam wrote was that sometimes people like gas furnaces because the air blows hotter. Let me let me and and my question with that is is well if you're using the comparison that the air blows hotter then you're not understanding what Comfort is right right? Let's let's back up for a second.

let's go back to the original question. Okay you said, should we as contractors be educating our consumers about comfort so you don't have to? But let me ask you another question as a contractor should equipment manufacture facturers be pouring a ton of money and effort into getting their equipment and trade schools and and spending all that money toward training? They don't have to. But should they? Yeah. Would it make them more successful? Yes.

Okay, so then as the contractor, would you not want to do the same thing for your customer I would. But it's a slippery slope because when you're going in and you have a 75y old man and you're changing his system, you're downsizing it to the proper size and he says yeah, but my system used to be hotter. the air used to feel I would feel the air standing in my kitchen now I Don't feel it's still the same temperature in the house but he doesn't feel the air blowing on him anymore. That reminds me of that.

There was like a TV show or something I don't know if you guys have saw it. um I don't remember what it was I just remember theh there was a part in the show where this guy like from the government walks this other guy into a room and he's like you feel that he's like no he's like I do remember this. he's like this room temperature and he's like this is the room temperature room. This is where we got the room temperature from I Mean so should we be trying to re-educate people to explain to them because we all know that you shouldn't be blowing air on people and that you should just feel comfortable in a room.

But some people have become accustomed to and when we've got the heat pump Revolution Coming on right now, this might be a a point of contention here because these guys are like I don't feel the air but it's the right temperature. we're now circulating the air. The room's comfortable, but you don't feel that air blowing on you so it's not as hot. There's something I would say to that.

So Adam wrote an article about value and perceived value. So one thing that worries me: should we educate consumers? Yes, And this is how I think it should go. Um, so there's going to be a bunch of people sending that messaging out to the marketplace, right? Some people are G to have value to bring and some people are going to have perceived value that may not be very valuable, right? Hardcore marketing and they could easily confuse the market and then homeowners don't know what to do and they may like that because that means they're going to win more jobs. So how does the good guy win with value marketing instead of prede value marketing? And I think that's where this movement, this whole deal is, where we all have to collectively say the same thing if we're going to market with the same Strate the same message.

The good guys could maybe trump card the confusion that the bad guys are maybe playing see like I actually think like I think the new manual s is powerful and um, it gives people a lot of room to make choices right? But like with the whole heat pump thing like what you guys were talking about sizing and that um I think it's not. It's kind of delivered in a way where you have the choice and like somebody was asking me yesterday. so I live in a cold climate should I size a heat pump for you know the heating load I'm like, well, maybe or maybe not like I you know I I think it's more of an opinion now and like on a Case by casee basis. like what do your duck work? can your duck work handle that if not size it for cooling, look at like the old methods for the old manual apps right? Um, but you I don't think you could just like hey now we are installing heat pumps Let's Go full bore and it's because like we're going to create Comfort issues and people are going to get pissed off and that's what's gonna happen you know? Yeah, so let's define Comfort though is comfort you know is Comfort what we read in a book or is Comfort what someone feels and is it going to change for each person I think it is I mean when you look at the ashray uh graph on a psych chart and it's a square this big and it ranges from this temperature to this temperature and this humidity level to that humidity level and somebody felt comfortable at that corner and at that corner.

So I think it is subjective and people do feel different and that's why I Think it's important to follow the standards because they're going to get you to the place where the system's operating and Performing as it should. But to your point about uh, well, this old system used to blow warmer air on me and I enjoyed that and so I felt Comfort Comfort I felt uh, it was almost like reassurance Comfort not necessarily physical room air, temperature comfort. and so I I think those are some of the things And so back to your original question: Should we educate? Absolutely I Think we've got to have those conversations so that people know what to expect and what's coming and then they can make a decision. Do I go with a hybrid system? Do I go all electric What? But they can us helping, educate and informing I Think is a great way to help them Reach A good decision so that they're comfortable.

whether that's how they feel this way or how they feel mentally about what's what is or isn't happening. So this definitely is my head spinning right now thinking about how you know in I just went through the process of of you know, fixing my home right and and going through the process and and as I was going through you know I've heard I've read the books I've heard all this stuff but I experienced it. You know as I tightened up my house as I I fixed duct work before I replac my system I started to get more uncomfortable in my house with my existing system because I started I I could sit on my couch and I'm feeling air hit in the back of my neck and I'm like what this is uncomfortable you know and during the process as he was doing this and we designed the system for his house, we cut the the uh the BTUs in half in his house. oh yeah, he had a 4ton with 100,000 We went with a two-ton heat pump with no backup but I have a ma it was massively oversized.

okay there. but yeah yeah but that's still that's huge yes but and the thing is he's in HVAC and he was in the beginning of the process. he was scared like he was nervous. it wasn't G to work well and I was actually thinking of Illinois I so I was thinking holy cow, two ton heat pump with no backup heat? how in the world and I remember no now I you know I was you know when I I put uh, no resist of heat strips know anything now I I size my electrical forward and stuff just in case right? but no I was like I'm not going to need the heat strips like you know.

Even though my design temperatures 37 degrees for winter like it's you know we're the Shell's keeping the house. we have enough. you know, like you guys were talking about yesterday, we have enough heat producing devices in the house that you know and and so I have to say yeah and I have to say um you know is as hard as Adam worked on my design, he still messed it up because it's still oversized I came home I came home on a my design temp's like 37 I think it got to 34 one day and I came home and my system satisfied and then there was a day in October towards the end of the summer when I had the cooling system running and I was above design and I come home and my system satisfied and I Adam I think we messed up even more still like no I I joke with Adam about that. We still haven't added fresh air though so we are going to add fresh air that's going to add a little.

but so I actually am running a two-ton heat pump in Chicago um no backup I do have backup I have 5kw backup ,800 foot house which it's still impressive so I um tightened up my shell and insulated and after doing all that I I didn't redo my load C so I I thought it would be fun to figure out my real life balance point. So like 10 11:00 at night on like a Friday night I'm sitting there like on the couch watching my phone and watching the outdoor temperature I'm like it's 1 Dee right now. Yeah, we we were getting messages all night and then Adam goes Hey, my wife just realized I've been playing Frankenstein with my own system and she was really upset with him. Um so we have a question in here and this is a good point.

This is from Ry Ray He's a very good commenter and you know has always been around. Ray says um, if we do all this work for a customer, what happens if it backfires the the thing is like I think I mean you tell your opinion too but like once you start going through the manuals and the process and the more you do it, the more you understand it works like it's not like hey, this is Hocus Pocus like I like to think like Manuel J is thick. It's like a two-inch thick book. It is intimidating if you just randomly open it up.

I feel like it's more confusing than the Bible I mean but thank you thank you. But but but but like the basis of it is like what I like to think one of the first things that Jack Rise went over is like UA delta T right? right? UA delta T So it's Like all you're doing is it's A It's a math. It's a it's It's math. It's like you're looking at an area of a surface and you're looking at what the R value or the U value is.

and you're calculating how quickly the heat will trans transfer based on the delta. T of the you know, uh, indoor temperature versus the outdoor temperature and that's it. There's not. There's not I Mean, there's a lot more physics and stuff into it than that, but that's like the basis of everything.

I I would say you know? Um, we need to get ready to wrap this up but few closing words. One thing is is so this when we were in the the seminar yesterday that Chris had with Russ and um and Steve yeah it took me a minute here. I'm like who else was up there? um not that Steve's forgettable, it was just my head's just whatever. Um, that was my favorite seminar of the show so far and not saying that everybody else is weren't good that genuinely I'm just digging holes right now.

Um, but you know you guys made a point and you said you can't. You can't just jump into a load calculation software and not have read the Acam manuals. You need to understand the Acam manuals. That's just like you can't just pick up a set of digital gauges and put them on a system and think you're going to be a super tech.

You have to know when you're giving bad information. You can't just turn on measure quick and say this tells me how to be a technician, it doesn't It just makes the job easier. If you know how to use the load calculation software, you know we can't just assume that every company out there tomorrow is going to be able to just do everything to these extremes. There's a learning curve.

There's a learning curve. and um, for the people that are trying to do better, for the people that are in the better HVAC movement, they're going to have to put in the work. So Chris I would throw out two thoughts because a question came up during that session about well, what happens if they've got a four ton and I do the load and it's requires a two ton and you go in and tell the homeowner and they say well, GE Wiiz I've had or I think it was a three ton and I want to downsize it to a two and he said well, I've had this three ton the whole time and I went up and said well, it's entirely possible and it depends on the status of the system, but that three ton could have been operating like a two ton this whole time. and so I think that's getting back to your question about what happens or Ray's question about what happens if I do this and it backfires I don't think it's going to backfire but I think there could be other things that are going on.

You talked about tightening up your home and in insulating I think there's assumptions that might be made about uh, Rob B gave a class on making assumptions about infiltration. you may assume even the worst case and it could be far worse than that. So there's uh, I would say if you're following the manuals, you've got a very, very high chance of hitting it right the first time. But if not, it's something in the house and data helps because when Adam when Adam ran the load on my house and then we did a measure quii report on my existing system, we did a true flow report on my existing system and Adam you know is explaining and we're looking at everything and he goes, you know we should put in a two ton and and you know, yeah, I was a little hesitant but I I trust the science and so I'm like okay but then we look at everything and we're like, well, my system's only delivering two and a half tons as it is right and it's a four ton or whatever it is so it's like, okay, you know, little more so so that's an argument for this information and your predictive, um, air flow forecasting that you're doing too.

This is having this data and having these. Remember you know, six years ago when this technology was coming out, everybody's like that's dumb and down the industry, you know we don't need that silly stuff. Well, this silly stuff is helping. You need to use all the tools you have in your Arsenal if it means uh, duck leakage.

Um, if duck leakage is a big one, if you're reducing the static, you're reducing your duck leakage period by default. even if you don't pull out a bucket of mastic or tape. Um, but blower door duck Blaster TR Flow Um, uh, you know manual Jade Good design. Uh quick.

Model Start going through all of the tools in Your Arsenal and you're not going to fail like it's just yeah. it's and it's a road man. You got to go down it and if you go halfway and you get off that that could almost I'm not gonna say it's the worst thing you could do, but like you know, I've I know companies back home and one I've heard a horror story where the company's like we tried that load calculation stuff, we ran it on the house, put that system in and it and it didn't work and we went right back to what we were doing. and it's like the problem is, you got off the road too early and you didn't realize what you did wrong to get it all the way right.

And that's what I worry mostly about is people get down the road. They they get a little piece of it and then they go. Well, it's not working I'm gonna back up quickly and it's like, well, what did you miss Like let's work through that and keep going and get you all the way. Yeah, we're not perfect.

You know we aren't perfect. Uh, we just have to strive to be better I Think think is the important thing. It's all science and math so it's not like Hocus Pocus in Troust I'm in big trouble. Well the good news is somebody did the math for us there.

so there's a lot that we just have to follow a few simple rules and we're in good shape. All right. Well, I think it's time that we wrap this up. We've been going for about 30 minutes.

I'm going to put Chris Hughes in the hot seat. why don't you close out the show? Give us a uh, some encouraging words, an encouraging quote. what do you got? Well, uh, man, the pressure. Uh, come on Chris don't have dead air right? Good answer we were just talking about.

you know, dead air. Don't try not to have dead air.