I'm here with ross trethewey, yes from this old house as well as your engineering firm, which is from again engineering, that's right, i'm out of massachusetts and yeah ross is here with me at the uh. Whatever you have this thing ibs, i always forget irritable, bowel syndrome. Whatever i'm not going to say that i'm here international international show that's right, but we're in front of the building zone here the big green wall at ibs and uh. This is amazing by the way i've.

Never i've never tried to compare ahr in this gone back to back like this, and it's like hr is big, but this is freaking enormous. This is bigger than hr yeah people in size, but uh, but yeah. It's not as focused on you know, hcc and some of the stuff we talk about, but still really cool yeah. So some of you may know ross he's a regular contributor to this old house.

He is a regular uh pusher of the compareto cube, which we're now calling the truth. No, no, no! So just a just a bug, neal cr box, the copper on cube whatever it is. I always have to bring it up every time. Just because it you know, it really feels great.

Neil is my favorite. Actually, let's talk a little bit about your background first, because we talked about it briefly a long time ago and on a podcast showing a video, but talk a little bit about your background. How you got into this trade and kind of what you're doing today yeah grew up the son of a plumber going through that you know from early on learned a lot. You know swinging their wrenches and then from there.

I got curious about how systems worked went to college got a degree from there got curious about the world of mechanics and how these systems go together. I went and got an engineering degree got a master's degree really focused on sustainable energy. That was kind of my core thesis right and from there started getting into the consulting world and engineering and trying to figure out how these systems come together and trying to be able to pull it all together at a high level. How we're going to deal with hvc how we're going to deal with? You know india, air quality, how we're going to deal with the building science, the aspects, because it's the building's a system we've got to make sure everything's working together, yeah, absolutely building a system is a really really key thing that you mentioned there and that's something.

We talk about all the time, regardless of whether you do residential air conditioning service or commercial or building science. All these things are kind of converging together and so you've actually had the opportunity to design some really interesting systems and we've kind of talked through that in the past um, where you're addressing things like indoor, air quality, we're addressing things like ventilation - and you know tightness And all these sorts of things so talk a little bit about some of the maybe products or ideas that you're really excited about right now, take it as nerdy as you want. Don't don't hold back on me, okay, okay! Well, yeah! I mean there's a lot of cool technologies coming down, you know: um, hybrid vrf systems, hvrf systems and one that are, you know, a friend of mine for me um. You know these manufacturers are coming out with the ability to use water as the means of conveying heat and cooling to the building and i'm a big believer in hydronics yeah.

It's the universal heat transfer medium unbelievable thermal conductivity, amazingly easy to pump yeah so um. So, for all those reasons i love hydronics and so the ability to take the best of an airsoft heat pump or even a grout source heat pump technology and take that and apply it to hydronics. That really, for me, is a game changer and then you get into r32 and the lower global warming potentials compared to r410a, and then on top of that, where it could go from there, it's getting to co2 and some other, maybe r290, and some other cool refrigerants And uh and that kind of forward-looking. I think that will be part of the future yeah, and i don't know if you remember, but this is like this topic is one of my favorites as well, because i agree that this is absolutely the future, because you think about even the possibilities for what you're Trying to do with hydronics the possibilities for domestic hot water, the possibilities for hot deck, cold deck - where not only are you cooling but you're, also dehumidifying, because you're reheating, i mean just incredible incredible things you can do with the system simultaneously, cooling, if you need it, You know hit a domestic hot water interact.

You know come back, get cooling literally when you're air conditioning the building and heating domestic hot water. At the same time, your your effect, your cop, could go to seriously to infinity right, i mean like that is so powerful rejected from one load from a room to dump it into the domestic hot water tank yeah, unbelievable yeah. We see like a really kind of arcane version of this. With your, you know, your typical hybrid, a lot of people call hybrid water heaters or heat pump water heaters um, because in florida, what we're doing is we're using it to not only heat the water but we're also cooling the space.

It's in that's a very simple one, directional version of kind of what we're talking about here, where you have a lot more options when you go to like a hybrid vrf, yeah yeah, it's totally cool to see. You know the thought that we could actually heat and cool move heat from different places, but also get into all those extra loads of a building. So it's super cool yeah, absolutely so in terms of ventilation. One of my favorite topics is demand: ventilation, so demand control, ventilation where you're actually not just ventilating, based on some sort of a model or a calculation, but you're actually looking at what's going on in this space, let's use sensor technology figure out what's going on and Then ventilate based on that, so what are your thoughts on that? So domain control ventilation's been around for a long time used commercially for a long period of time right, as you know, residentially a little bit slow to adopt it.

My personal belief is: i'm a huge fan of dcv domain control, ventilation and what i like to do is low speed, continuous with ecm motors and then boost the high speed depending you know, on the demand, yeah and the demand can be a function of a variety Of in your air quality sensors, it could be co2, it could be radon, it could be. You know, particular matter could be vocs could be a variety of things, so there's really no limit to what those sensors could be and could drive it on a linear ramp. So you're, you know you're properly ventilating to what you need for that space and you're doing it as energy efficiently as possible yeah, because in different markets you have different challenges right. You have some markets.

That radon is a big concern and it may be a primarily heating market right. So, if you bring in too much outdoor air well, now you've got to reheat that air again in the space and our market, all i ever think about is latent loads. All i ever think about is moisture right, so bringing in outdoor air, if i don't need to bring it in, is a net negative, because not only am i bringing in a lot of moisture that deals with comfort issues and all that, but it can also create An indoor air quality nightmare right and a lot of markets, you say, bring it as much outdoor as you can in florida. That's not the case right and layton loads, as you know, are one of the most challenging items you can't have enough of it down in this climate.

So uh. I completely agree with you. If we can get these systems really integrated and working effectively to what we need and the sensors are, what unlocks that right, what we didn't have before was the sensors to do it. Now we have the sensors to do it.

You know, there's a company called air things that they have the this came with the view, plus it's one device that basically gives you particulate matter vocs. Carbon dioxide, radon temperature, relative humidity, and i think i'm missing one all into one package in a cost-effective manner. Right and it can integrate through ifttt and some of these other platforms. So now we can use the sensor to say: hey.

We want to trigger domain control. You know, because there's a lot of people in that space or because our vsts level, spiked and - and i think that's where it's going yeah one thing that i'm really excited to see is taking these technologies and packaging them together. So that way, your typical installer can actually access them and use them. Because up to this point you mentioned uh ifttt always called it.

But if this, then that right correct - and so you have to kind of go and you have to configure these rules and all that and for guys, like you and me, that's fun, like that's a that's a weekend of joy, it's gon na mess with that stuff, But for your average contractor that's pretty inaccessible to do even though they've made it significantly easier, we're talking specifically on the residential side, because, like you said right in commercial, you know the company's been doing this for a really long time. This isn't anything new! That's right! That's right: yeah you've got to create a system exactly exactly the system right, because if you have one guy that knows how to wire it or how it's configured you're at a net loss right if that system ever goes wonky for whatever reason you need to set A service technician to solve it they'll be like what the heck's going on here. So as much as you know, i'm a big believer in hardwired connections as much as possible, but where we have to get creative with it, we have to get creative with it and hopefully we'll get to a standard protocol on how these systems can actually interact. Like you said a package system, something that's a system that people can read a manual and understand what's going on and then therefore they know how to service it.

Yeah and there's it's one thing: to develop systems for really high-end houses. Where people have these massive budgets and they're building brand new structures right right, that's one thing and that's a really good kind of breeding ground for innovation, because you can do a lot of things in those markets that you can't do other places. But i'm sure you run into this the more exotic, a solution, the more difficult it is to find anybody who knows how to install it and work on it right totally yeah. We we actually want to try to stay away from those exotic systems with one-offs, because they only create more and more challenges right.

We can design whatever you want right. We can design it to do whatever physically is possible, but on the flip side of it, how do you actually get that system to be integrated and app applied correctly right and that's where all the challenges are because then you've got to get the architect on board. The builder on board the hcc technician on board, if there's a controls contractor on board an electrician on board, they're all going to come together and it becomes challenging right, there's more more cooks in the kit in the kitchen yeah exactly and that's where systems thinking comes In really huge, because it's taking everything putting it together and not only putting it together but being able to explain it as a system, which is something that i'm always super excited about, like i think one of the areas that that we're doing better and better at Is saying all right, if we're going to put together this really exotic design, let's actually create some nice illustrations, let's create some videos, let's actually make it so that people can really understand. You guys are doing a great job with that.

Oh, thank you that was, i was kind of hunting for that. I was just going to see if you were going to say that hey. Can i get ross to say something nice about me. There we go, you guys are doing a great job.

You know it's! You know rising tide brings, you know, raises all votes and so having those 3d. You know, you know videos and having the cutaways and some of those diagrams you guys have put together. I think really does tell the story and educate the technician and, in the whole hvc community on what's actually happening behind the scenes. Yeah and something like a you know: hybrid vrf as an example, it isn't nearly as complicated as people would believe.

It is it's just different, you know it's like it's like. If you haven't been, you know my wife and i went ice skating recently and i hadn't been for years. It's like when you first get out. There's like oh my gosh.

I have no idea what i'm doing right, but then you catch on really quickly and it's the same thing with a lot of these newer technologies. It's all the same basic concepts, we're moving heat around we're moving fluids around all the same sorts of things. It's just a little different configuration exactly yeah, i mean as long as you can get the basic building blocks right. Then then you're going to be fine right, and so you again it gets applied correctly.

It can then gets installed correctly, and then we have a happy customer. At the end of the day, yeah uh talk a little bit because i think everybody's curious. You know so you are now second generation on this old house. Our third generation on this old house was my grandfather.

Oh is my father, yeah and now third generation yeah. I mean first off big shoes to fill right. So it's you know it comes with pressure and that you know you got to be on your a-game. You got to know what you're talking about and know what you're doing so you know there's a ton of research that goes into it.

On the flip side, it's a it's an amazing. You know, i call it a pleasant distraction. Yeah, you know gets me away from my day my day, job, my day-to-day business and uh, and be able to explain - and you know, talk about the things that i that i truly do care and love about heating, cooling, dehumidification, humidification, indoor, air quality. These things are passionate about yeah and so to bring it to the audience to be able to talk about these newest technologies that are coming like hybrid vrf systems and stuff, like that, that a lot of people wouldn't even know about right.

It's really kind of like on the peripheral of the entire. You know interesting communities, it's great work, because in many cases, when you talk about newer technologies, which is what you tend to focus on they're kind of the newer technologies, yeah a lot of people have these preconceived concepts or they know nothing about it at all. So, like heat pumps as an example, you were just talking about heat pumps today right so many people have this really negative thought about heat pumps right and yet it's because they are thinking about maybe the heat pumps over prior generation. So like talk about that a little bit yeah i mean everybody has a good, really good memory when it comes to issues with problems and exactly the name sticks in your head yeah.

So when a heat pump system goes bad, you basically write it off and say: oh he posts her back right, and so i don't. I don't fault that you know for people that had really bad experiences in the 70s, 80s and 90s, with poor applications of heat pump technology. The difference is that that's that's not true anymore right, inverter compressors have changed the games. Enhanced vapor injection have changed the game.

Uh control systems have changed the game. Ecm motors have changed the game so now we're talking with a completely different set of tools right. We have all these tools in the toolbox. We can apply it and use it.

You know to our liking uh to make sure that the building is gon na perform adequately we're gon na be efficient and people are gon na be comfortable yeah and it's always a better idea to take heat from outside and put it inside than it is to Burn stuff and make fire because of the safety and everything associated with that or to take electric, which is super, inefficient and people will say: oh electricity is 100 efficient, which is one of the funniest things that people say because of that misunderstanding. But but it's always a better idea, but people get this in their head like well, it's cold outside. I can't bring it in and that's what that's what you're doing is helping educate people that you know we're not even close to absolute zero. We can get plenty of heat from the outside and it works absolutely fantastic.

That's exactly what i just talked about people like negative 13. These people working like what's going on. It's crazy, there's no heat out there yeah! You can't do that. I'm like well wait! A second, if i put it relative in terms if you're at negative 459 degrees right - that is absolute zero, so negative 13 is actually quite warm right right.

If you compare it on that scale, you're trying to bring the education and awareness about that technology and kind of try to put those old technology, you know the old hip-hop technology kind of put that to bed, because it's not it's not true anymore. You know and it's exciting, it's super exciting. The technology just keeps getting better and better and better. I feel like every three to six months.

We have a new product coming out. It's been an honor to get to know you. It's very i'm very thankful that you interact with us like in the in the groups, and also it's really just cool um. It's fun to see everybody kind of nerding out about doing things that not only are make our jobs enjoyable like so we enjoy it because it's interesting, but it's also good for humanity.

Like i mean that might be a little overstatement, but you get it. I mean it's it's good for it's good for our environment, it's good for the comfort level of people. It's really cool to do this, and i appreciate you taking the time to talk about so great on so many different levels and it's always always a pleasure yeah man. Thank you so much thanks for watching our video.

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