Um so I want to thank our uh, special guest today Craig I I I still can't I I I can never do it right and even if I do this. Migia Migao Mig how do you say it? Craig say the last name for me again. Yeah yeah, Migao yeah it is migao I that is. that's how I said it.

but I was just busting your chops anyway. Oh okay, all right, fair enough. I I felt like I did it wrong I did the hand thing I did everything yeah uh. and then Ty Branaman as well.

um both. uh YouTubers and uh, super awesome Educators Trainers, social media personalities the whole deal. Um, hold on a second. I'm having a one little bug here on the side see I shouldn't be doing this while I'm going live.

Um so yeah, thanks for joining guys! We're g to be talking about learning outside the box which is like one of my favorite topics. I I Guarantee you. um Tai is super excited about the fact that we have PowerPoint slides. He absolutely loves PowerPoint slides.

um that's a joke Tai hates powerpo PowerPoints uh with a burning passion of a thousand Sons Um, but yeah so that's the conversation is going to be about education and about like what it actually takes to learn. I I want you to te up because you were kind of Matt I want to turn it over to you quickly because you were kind of giving an example of some things um, that you thought would be important to discuss here as we go through this. You're running the slides anyway. So oh, someone else moved that slide.

so that was not me. You? yeah. One of the things that I've been thinking about this last year is just the role of books and podcasts and things like that like that's that's like one way of learning things. But then there's also um I was able to go to the Symposium last year and like being around PE being around a different group of people and hearing different perspectives I think is also a way of learning.

Um, and so yeah. um, one of the which one of those buckets the three that we have on the screen. What? What is that? That's that's like random learning. Um, go ahead.

Ty Uh, so Random learning is where you don't You don't have a an actual goal. It's a great, very powerful learning tool. It's where if we listen to a podcast a random, the next one comes on and we learn all kinds of stuff. We see a random video about something even.

We can take a random course like I'm just going to take this little course and learn about some stuff and it's it's fun information, it's um, it's a great way of learning. We don't have an actual drive to figure something out, but it's a powerful way of learning. listening in conversations. There's several groups I'm in that I will never talk uh and I just listen and and watch what people are talking about and typing about.

And even when people argue as long as it's not personal attacks, if they're arguing, it's great because you can learn so much from a disagreement and we have some at the Symposium some brilliant people that will disagree about stuff and I learned so much just different points of view because I've never thought about it this way I've never thought about it that way and it's it's great all right. So let's talk about the other two while we have this up. So Random learning is but I guess One thing that I want to mention about that though is, don't you think that there's a certain type of learner? a certain type of Personality or or maybe even it's just a certain educational stage that's more likely to learn from random learning? um, than others? Because I can think of a time when I did a lot of when I've done a lot of random learning and then there's like whole sads of my career where there's not much of that happening. I think social media has done great for random learning especially you know, Tik Tok and YouTube where just the next thing pops up and it's right there and it's curious.

we we figure stuff about like I've learned about space and time and gravity which doesn't help me at all, but you know I've just been learning a a variety of things and that's the the only the slight downside with random learning is it doesn't give you an actual path and a goal. You pick up really cool stuff, but it doesn't mean it's always going to be useful or pertain to at the time. and HVAC is so big. like there's so much random learning I get sometimes it gets overwhelming because there's the big picture is so big and I just kind of get lost in all of the randomness.

I I think uh, just I know how I I learn through the goal driven learning. probably more uh and if that's maybe problem solving trying to figure out a problem I think everybody's built differently and everybody learns a little differently and uh, so like I find like random learning. For me, it's it's hard you know, it takes. it takes more like dedication to like, really listen in.

you know, whereas when I'm trying to figure out some type of circumstance, especially like, say, as a teacher. if you are, you know, maybe you feel like you're 90% there or something like that and you're missing this whole subject. You're like you got to dive in and go get it. You know you got to try to figure it out.

and I think those are the types of times when it really sinks in and you're firing. You know, a lot of of your brain in order to try to to try to figure something out. uh, forced forced learning I Feel like uh, you know it's it's it's a little harder probably Falls for me, you know, into that random learning category hey Craig um let me. one thing I was curious about was you the process of writing the mini split book I Know you talked to me a little bit about it at the Symposium but can you share with us what that experience was like? uh, probably just like what I was saying except probably less than the 90 like basically trying to figure out and and put together what you already know and apply it to Min splits.

Uh, doing a lot of testing on a lot of different manufacturers units to make sure that what you are saying is in fact true. uh you are constantly digging and questioning yourself and a lot of that was wrestling around with with like Brandon like looking at the topic, not physically wrestling you know. uh but uh, come on be Bri was already smirking I had I just had to say um, but uh, a lot of testing, a lot of just dwelling and thinking and writing. uh basically a lot of it is writing what? I what? I knew we needed to cover and then trying to fill in the blanks and trying to delve deeper into those other subjects where you know, maybe you think you know what it is, but now you absolutely 100% positively got to know and you have to figure out how you're going to explain that to somebody.

And then you have to like continually restructure the document and think about the images that you need along the way. So you know people have asked, you know, how do I write a book Um, and you're like I I don't have I don't really have a way to tell them, you know I mean it's difficult, it's it's very hard. Um, so I don't really have a structure for it. To that point though, your structure is that you have this end goal.

which is that you want to write a comprehensive book about minisplits and you also want to make sure that you don't have anything that's false in it. Um, and and you want it to be of substance, right? And so when you have those three things that are in hand, like it, it forces you to break down those problems. and that's something you've always been really good at. like I've always looked up to you in your videos.

Uh, and it's a testament to, um, that style of learning I Think you are very much, um, that that goal driven like if you're going to make a video about a topic, the goal is to cover that topic thoroughly. Uh, and it's not going to be distracted. it's not going to be all over the place like lot of my stuff is. it's going to be very focused on getting to this This particular goal.

I Got to throw some self-deprecation in there a little bit. I Mean you do have more? You do have more you know subscribers than me on. YouTube It's not a big deal or anything to me, but it's a little little sore. But um, so one question that I do have though, is this distinction between goal driven and forced.

Like what? What's the difference there? Because if you're forced, that's still a goal, right? So how does that? What's the distinction there? Ty Do you have any thoughts? Yes. So Force Learning is is my least favorite. That's going to be to where you have to take a continuing education class to keep your license up like you you your boss is sending you to go do a class and you don't want to be there. you have to go through it.

Uh, you will most likely pick up something like a safety meeting. It keeps safet in the front of your mind, but it's it's not really beneficial and if you're even if it's a good class, if you're forced to go to the class, you know you're bored. That's where you get the people that start interrupting and start. You know, causing trouble because hey they're they're bored, They don't want to be there and this could even be in in.

Traditional School people are their parents force them to go to School Hey, if you want to keep living in the house, you have to go to school and so they're doing it. They don't want to be there. they don't like anything about it and so they make it unpleasant for everybody else too. And I used to think you know, hey, if we had some mandate mandated uh requirements for Hbac Learning and since then I've thought, nope I've done plenty of contractor continuing education and Fize Forced Learning doesn't have a lot of goals.

It doesn't work well on gold driven learning. That's going to be your big career separator. Gold Driven Where you're going to say hey, I want to learn about VF Vrf and you're going to go in and you're going to make an actual deadline like this is what I want to learn and you're going to make some way points along the way. You're going to have to have some accountability as you go through there.

and this could be a formal course where you have an instructor being accountable or you have a friends or a colleague. but you're going to have to actually dig in deeper than even just one class. Even if you're going to a class, Gold Driven is going to be going that deeper level of understanding Why? wanting to really be a professional Edit: So for example, random learning I saw a video on on TXV some really cool stuff like how it works inside Gold Driven. Be like I want to understand everything about that TXV You know the heat pumps versus you know internal check valve, external check valve.

all these different aspects of how to size them, how to diagnose them. So that's where you actually have that drive and a goal. You don't just say I want to learn everything about it, you have to Define it and you have it an indate. So if your goal is to write a book on Min splits you have a an in date or a Target in date and then you have to have way points along the way.

You should be this far along at this point and you're going to have people that are accountable and I I know Craig has has had that in his own team of hey I want to be further along at this point? So gold driven learning is really going to separate you in a career. Both random learning and gold driven are very powerful ways of making a difference in the industry. but that gold driven is really going to separate you and move you forward. Yeah, that's actually like I never heard this distinction before.

this is actually new to me and hearing you describe this and I I really like it because even in a lot of people don't know this I think I've said this a couple times but even when I first started writing Tech tips which is really other than a few podcasts it was really the start of Hbac school. I didn't have a set goal in terms of like specific topics but I did say I'm going to put out a tech a tech tip every single day now. of course we don't do that anymore, but but there was a time when I put out a tech tip every single day. So I was writing every single day and that was such a huge driver to me.

Me learning I mean hopefully some other people learn some stuff along the way too. But but for me to learn, it was massive because I put a goal to it. uh and I I really forced myself into that. and it was the period where I've probably learned more than I've ever learned.

It's a very, uh, very interesting um way of defining that. When you first said force force learning I was imagining it was like hey, you're on a job at midnight and you got to get the system up and running. you know, like you know that's when you you know, lay hands on the unit and pray over it kind of a thing which I literally have done before. Um, but but but that's not.

but that's not what. that's not what you're talking about here. You're saying it's when someone else is forcing you, uh, to learn rather than you wanting to learn it right? Yes, got it. And I know Adam this last this last year that I've known him, he's G he's grown exponentially and I know that he has some goals in mind and he's been hitting those goals and to see the change in Adam and his the his questions.

his level of questions have changed and he you know asks for help and he has these deadlines and sometimes it gets stressful but it's been really cool seeing that that transformation and that's the power of that gold driven learning I appreciate that. Um one thing I was going to say about random learning. um I find it super helpful like social media and looking at like microlearning. You know what I mean like uh, these like YouTube shorts or Tik Tock or whatever else where it's just like a short little 30 second or one minute video.

Um, and you know Ty you do them all the time on compressors, copeling compressors. you know I've learned so much about compressors by watching your videos. Um, and it's like I don't know if I would have ever learned it if I wasn't like a subscriber to you, you know? So I think a lot of that's very powerful and so for me that was a goal driven as having to uh learn all this stuff to have the job I had at the time and some of the stuff is like really cool and interesting. So I've taken that and and cut it into random learning or microlearning bits to make it interesting for people.

hey this is really cool I think that I want to share this one piece so they don't have to take a full entire class over. You know everything about a compressor. Hopefully they'll remember you know, eighth of it or a third of it. and uh and just pull these little things out there.

So it's random. Learning is extremely, extremely powerful because we can pick up all these little bits and it's interesting so we're more likely to remember it. but it's still like, you know, a small segment. Yeah, I Just wanted to say one thing.

so Tai actually, um, you know he encourages me all the time whether he says anything or not and you know all you guys. Actually, you know, like it's it's it's uh, encouraging, you know Matt you know I I just met you at the Symposium You know what I mean you encouraged me when you know just meeting you, you know and Adam and and Brian you know what I mean like your growth and um, talking with you and Brian you know your continual encouragement as well like seeing what you're doing. But so Tai was doing those little um, 30 second one minute videos and stuff like that and I'm like it is okay. It is okay to do this small content because I'm always like no, no, no, like Brian what you said before, no it has to be all in compassing all this has to include all this stuff and it's like well, I can just put out one little tip like on Facebook or whatever.

one little thing it's okay. So that actually encouraged me to to change a bit and and say it's okay. Now we have. Also it's like if you put one side of it everybody else is like what about all the rest you know but you're like ah I'm not even trying to get into that.

You know you try to always give a little micro tip and then you're you're trying to send them to maybe a longer video to they they can learn a lot longer. Uh but one thing I wanted to say was the random learning I Was picturing initially that the random learning was more like you just randomly see a video but Adam what you said was you already know Tai you know what I'm saying so it was more. It was not as random as you think because you're like I'm already vested in him. You know what I mean like I know I'm GNA listen to to whatever he's saying.

if it pops up my feet I'm probably gonna just go ahead and watch it so it's like it's almost like not as random as you think. uh but the problem is with random is if if it's just anybody, it's like you have to like vet who you're listening listening to and by that time it's like on a new subject you don't even know what it is. So I think it. you do have to establish you know who or what you're willing to take in.

Yeah, I think one of the things about random because I am a r I do a lot of random learning and I do a lot of random teaching. Um, but one of the things about it is that it it. It actually works. It's powerful after you've already done a lot of go- driven learning like So for example, if you're wanting to learn how to do an AC furnace out right? Uh, and you've done a couple and you're like man, there's some things that I'm struggling with and then you do some random learning and then like in these in these dots start connecting.

You know it's like Beautiful Mind in the yarn, you know like it's like oh okay now I see how that connects to this and now all of a sudden you know airf flow and and all this makes sense And and random learning isn't like you said, it isn't as random as you think when you start to go to trusted sources. Um, and it certainly isn't a bad thing. but I think a lot of times if I to kind of anchor and finish off this slide and and move on here A lot of times. what happens is we push random learning or we push forced learning rather than being clear that gold driven learning is where the the majority of the real learning work is done and as either Educators or employers or whatever.

Realizing that unless we have a real goal that we're setting for ourselves, but also for the people that we're teaching, it is hard to get from point A to point B and again, all it takes is for you to like watch Craig stuff to to see like if you're going to I like the way you talk about Craig about preparing a unit for charge like the way you put that is like yeah, that's exactly what you're doing. When you you know pull a vacuum and pipe fitting and recovery and all that stuff you're you're going from um, the from where you are to Preparing the unit for charge and you're walking through all of those steps uh to to be at that point and that's that kind of goal driven I mean even the way you describe it is a goal driven way of describing it versus saying I don't know just random HVAC facts you know like it's you're You're getting to this point of actually being able to charge system which I think is yeah. put putting a freon in man, you gotta get ready y I saw Freon Leon in the comments I mean you know that's that's it Leon I Have a question What? uh so for you? do you guys have a learning goal currently? Um, and if so, what is it for me? uh you know the presentation that I'm G to be doing down in the Symposium in Florida. You know, like you, you're trying to make sure that you know all the different things with it just to just to make sure that you're clear and then you're thinking, well, you know you only have so much time to deliver and Craig historically runs out of time.

but uh, you know Craig needs to make sure that he's on time, you know? But uh, so it's like you always refer to yourself in the third person like that. I'm just wonder this kind of disturbing. Craig's happy. That's right, Craig's feeling Craig's feeling good Craig's ready I need to start doing that.

Yeah, I mean well. it really ends up having to do with whatever goal is right in front of you. At that point in time you know it's like it's that. it's other things as well.

it's you know, for me. hey, running a business and trying to figure out all of these things like how to do it efficiently so you're not like driving yourself absolutely nuts. You know, you know. I've run businesses and stuff like that before, but like it's like it's different.

You know and you're trying to. You're trying to make sure you know you're ging everybody. You're trying to make sure that everybody's time is accounted for and taken care of. and you know nobody stressed and stuff like that.

So you have like that for me is something. So that's a goal. You know the Symposium and you know some stuff we're doing at Ahr you know and then it's like whatever the next project is, which you know we're in between. Right now there's a couple different projects.

um as far as you know, the next things that we're going to do. so it's um, yeah, there's a lot you know, even rewrite, like working on the refrigerant, charging a book again. you know, in the future. Potentially, you know there's a lot of different things you know, we have new refrigerants we've got a lot of.

like keeping your head up and knowing all of those things for when everybody's asking you. Yeah, that that when and when you do. The kind of stuff that we do at this point like there's such a barrage of questions and you and you become very aware. Um, and this is actually one of the things that I wanted to bring up in this topic is like being very aware of where you're not comfortable.

like I'm not really Comfort I have an answer, but I'm not comfortable with my answer. That's where you really want to dig in. and that's where I am right now with 2ls and um, the actual refrigerant piping side of it like we've done so much content on the equipment and mitigation and all that. But it's like, well, what happens if like, there's like you're running a new line set and it's in a concealed space that's like in a closet.

Like what prevents it if it leaks there, if somebody bumps it and it leaks there and you get above the lower flammability limit Like what mitigates there, you know, And and there's just these questions. and so you're looking at different I'm looking at different Ashray guys guidelines and all this and you're finding that like oh, there's actually like there's some gaps here like I don't know how this is going to be interpreted by different Ahjs and so diving into that is a big one and it's kind of fun whenever you're This is another thing I'm sure you guys noticed. Like when you start like asking certain questions and people are real quiet, like they're real confident. Real confident, real confident.

Then you ask certain questions they like, um, you're like oh wow. Okay, so maybe we don't really. Maybe as an industry, we don't really have an answer to this and those are really fun ones as well. Um, what about you? Tai what are some things you're um, goal- driven learning on? My goal's currently been building Science.

So I've learned a massive amount of it. And then there's there's so much like listening to to Jenry and Michael House and and there's such different parts of the country and then hearing them like disagree about different things. It's just. it's amazing.

So when we talk about building science I'll get quiet because I understand a lot of it. but I haven't done it like I don't have the blower door I don't have the duck Blaster I haven't done actual testing I Think that's another big factor is we have to do stuff like we can read stuff and learn stuff and have these cool ideas. but we have to actually do it to move to that next level. And for me, I haven't done it enough.

Uh, I've only been around people doing it or seen people do it, haven't done it myself. So like that's where I get really quiet because I know I'm I'm not there yet I think that's a great transition to the the next slide. Um, this is. This is like a kind of a concept that I was exposed to a few years back.

It's like different types of knowing, right? So propositional is like books, podcasts, things like that procedural is kind of what you're talking about Ty like okay, yeah, like I know a blower door exists and I know what it does. but like I don't know how to set it up and I don't know how to like go like how to actually like do something with the results of it, right? and that could be like I don't know how to design a load calculation from it I don't know how to like put together a scope of work to fix something um and then perspectival. I think um, um, that's sort of like for me. um, the one big way I've been thinking about that is like kind of like what you like what you're saying T like man, there's a lot I don't know about this particular area and I need to remember what I don't know and kind of put myself underneath that limitation um, and then participatory.

This one is difficult for me to understand, but it's sort of like when you get all of those other ones together and you're just kind of like like, um, you know, maybe like I feel like this when it comes to Ser like service work I feel like like it's it just kind of happens. Now it's like almost like driving a car right? Like you just you get in the car and and like you arrive at your location and you kind of can't even remember. like how you got there. like like at this point like changing a capacitor and like having a conversation with a homeowner about it.

it's like I don't even yeah I hardly even remember it. Um, so some I have some good um because I've thought about this and and this is goes back to Matt because he's the one who sent this concept to me. There was a video about this and it was really like it struck me. I sent it to my wife and we argued about it a little bit.

uh, as all good couples do and uh, here's the way I Think about it. So like we all know, propositional. It's the smart kid who's straight out of school. He knows everything right.

He read it in a book. It's the tech who went to tech school, right? and he's in the bright one, you know. So he actually has some. You know, he's got propositional knowledge.

He actually knows what the book says. But that's not enough. right? He hasn't really done it. Procedural is the guy who's like I know how to do a maintenance I do these 20 steps I know how to replace an evapor coil I do these steps.

but there's not the perception to know like, okay, something's different here. uh, and he's like, no I know how to replace a Vaper coil I do these steps right that uh, and now now I lost the slid so I don't remember the next ones. the next one that perception. one that that p uh perspectival I don't know I I think of it as perception.

That's where good. That's where good technical service Texs Live right where you know. You know that you don't know a lot. And there's also a lot.

that, um, a lot of factors. And so you kind of have that spidey sense. like you have enough perspective to be able to to understand. Um, what's going on.

You have, um, you have perception. But another word is intuition. Like intuition lives in that world. And that's where a lot of good techs are.

Participatory is the person who can go in and not only knows it, not only can fix it, not only has the spidey sense, but can also communicate and bring others into it. So that's that. Sort of like there's a social knowledge that's necessary, necessary, and participatory. The person who can lead a team successfully to accomplish a goal.

It's not just them doing it, it's the ability to discuss it with a client and have them understand. But also I think when you think about Educators that's really where you want to live. As an educator, it's more than just saying knowledge. And it's more than just saying.

This is how you do it. It's more than just saying learn the spidey sense. It's like being able to connect with another human being and getting them to also be able to see and and collaborate. And and if you think about different people who you've interacted with, um, you'll see.

It's not like it's only in One Direction right? There are some people who are really good at procedural and like don't know any propositional. They don't know anything about the book, but they know exactly how to do it right. And that's okay too in a lot of cases. Um, but you start to realize pretty quickly that the goal is to get to the place where you understand it enough.

Again, you don't really know something until you understand it well enough that you can actually teach it simply. Um, which is a really high bar bar and a big challenge Craig Yeah, um, this is a hard a hard one. So you had to call on me and I'm like yeah I don't know so you look nervous which is why I called on you I just want yeah, yeah, that's inevitable. Yeah, yeah.

um so the facts beliefs Concepts like if you're talking about a student in a classroom I I always would go towards not even the procedural, so say you're introducing a new topic to somebody I would end up bringing them to whatever it is and putting them right in it right away. Uh, in a safe, semi- safe environment. You know I'm going to guard them, make sure everything's safe. but I want them to experience something first before I teach them the facts and then and then as we, uh as we move forward I'll give a little fact, a little procedural, a little fact, a little procedural.

It's kind of like climbing a ladder or something like that. it's it's you have to have a little at a time and you also have to have the the student wrestling with it. You know they have to be asking questions or struggling. You have to like let them struggle a little bit.

You know in order to be able to, uh, be able to learn and so like as a teacher, you're sitting there looking at them. I guess in the perception realm and you're you have to know. You have to kind of like read people and and see like where they're at and and try to help them out a little bit. Um, you know, ask them questions.

Maybe you're not even helping them out, but you're just asking questions trying to get them to the point where it really, really, um, you know is internalized into them. um but yeah, this I this slide. It's kind of hard for me. I I think uh, just trying to really, uh, internalize this one.

As you like to say, you know, takes me a little time little time to internalize things. sometimes it's kind of tou. it's kind of touchy feely and you're just a little too manly for that. I think is what it is.

it's just those muscles bulging everywhere. Yeah I just get real close to the camera. So I had so this is one example. I have this is one that Brian I Know you've talked about this quite a bit right? It's like the first thing you one of the first things you learn when you open an air conditioning book is uh you know, oh law right? But like what do you actually do with 's law like yeah, can you can you give us your your R and that's kind of.

So if you go back to what we're what we were just saying like um you want to as quickly as possible Uh, a couple things you want to recognize. Uh, get to a place that you have humility, right? And that's that whole Dunning Krueger thing that we've talked about so often. you want to get to a place that very quickly you recognize that the gold is not to know everything because that's impossible and you don't. Uh, and so you want to get as much reps as you can in the world in which you're working.

Uh, and when you think that it's really important that you know E equals I * r or V equals I * R in the way they do it here. Um, when you think that's really important to know that, uh, you think that doing the math is the really important thing that you come to the right conclusion. And that's that same sort of huis or ego that makes you believe that. but the reality is knowing it is helpful if you understand the proportion or the relationship between those things.

That's what's helpful to understand what happens when one goes up and the other goes down. But what's crazy is there are so many people who can do the math of E equals I times R But they still don't understand. If you decrease resistance in a circuit, the current goes up right? That's what's crazy and that is what happens, right you? De? that's what this? That's what this is telling you right If if You decrease the resistance in a circuit, the impedance in a circuit, the current goes up. If the voltage stays the same, that's one of the most applicable things that comes out of this.

And yet most people who can do the math and very many experienced technicians don't understand that relationship. But once you start to dive into it, you recognize that this is crazy complicated. I mean Ty and I Talked about this. uh, a couple years back when I was teaching the apprenticeship class.

Like there's all these factors, even things like light bulbs. When you try to do it in real life, you learn very quickly. like, oh, hold on, that didn't work you like, uh, actually under load. the resistance changes significantly.

Uh, and so like. That's valuable to learn. Getting students to the point that's like, hey, doing the math Fine, but really, just understand the relationship and get to the point that you really realize huh? this is. you know, like this is more complicated than I think it's going to be.

This is not something that you go out into the field and apply with a calculator. You apply it with getting to the place that you can perceive the value of it when you're starting to troubleshoot some more complicated problems. and I've used 's law and Watts law many times to troubleshoot problems, but it's much more in that proportional way than it is in the actual math outcome way. I Would always start with the Watts law first you know with the students in the classroom with the multimeter.

Actually when we started the electrical section I would start with the multimeter first you know and let them start reading and measuring things you know you know just safely. Uh, but you know with Watts law you know we would you know take a light bulb you know we' check the current and you know we' determine, determine it and and say oh yeah it's 60 wat light bulb um you know 120 and 0.5 amps but um but yeah so we do that before going here because of it changing because they didn't understand that the resistance of of a say incandescent light bulb will change. you know once it heats up. Uh so yeah.

I I With anybody you know experience, you're gonna nobody's G to care. You could. you could be the best teacher in the world or whatever nobody's going to Care unless they experience it first and struggle with it a little bit and don't really understand or get excited about it. and then that's when I think they take it in so like you could say it to them three times before you go.

take them in the classroom and they're not going to understand because they don't care and that's I think that's the big thing and even with things like that, that's where you can use the the term is a Socratic method which is the teaching method of Socrates which is a you basically I Ty is nodding his head um it's basically you're you're using questions in discourse like hey why do you think this might have happened like what 's law doesn't work do you think 's law is broken why do you think that might be you know and and let them theorize and let them work through it now nowadays they can just Google it really quickly. but um and I actually I used to get mad about it. now it's like okay, good job that is kind of what I want you to do in real life. but um talk about that a little bit.

Ty that sort of like Socratic method I I love the Socratic method. You know it's a great point where this OHS law. we talk about simplifying things but SS law. we've simplified it so much and now you look at it and it's what is it even mean So I love being able to take that and then expand it back out and then we go back and we have that appreciation.

So I'll ask the student hey what do you think is going to happen Well now you have their curiosity going well I think this is going to happen okay what do you think I think that's gonna happen oh who's going to be right and if we think about as as unfortunate it is media and even social media. They were saying if you want to grow your channel, have conflict, say things that are wrong to build you to get people aggravated and they'll have more, uh, more engagement and it grows it and I I don't like that at all. but in a controlled setting like a classroom, it's a great powerful tool because nobody wants to be wrong and if you're right, you remember it and if you're wrong, you remember it and I know I've been wrong a lot and I remember those things. so I'll do that in the safe way in the classroom.

even I'll in the class on oh, we ran out of time. We'll have to find the answer tomorrow. Who's you know? do some research and see who's going to be right and they'll come back with all kinds of stuff and it will lead into sometimes a whole entire level of stuff that I didn't know just because they're researching themselves. and if you get somebody interested and excited about a subject and where they're going and researching and bringing back new stuff that you didn't know I mean that's incredible and electricity.

I Think you could spend your whole life studying electricity Like that video recently of the guy talking about the electrons to the to the Moon in back and how it's instant and the mag, it's like it's amazing. You know you can just keep going. but yeah, when you get people interested in it and if you have to use a little bit of disagreement in there to get that started, get that fire started. I I'm all for it.

Whatever it takes to get something to stick or get people interested, I'll do it all right. I Have a quick question. this is a complete This is a complete aside. Not really, but um, has anybody here watched the show Ted Lasso Okay, all right Ted Lasso is a great show by the way.

and really, if you want to like leadership, business, all that stuff like it's great. but there's this scene in there and I'm not going to I'm not going to describe the whole scene, but it's the ubiquitous scene. You can look it up. It's the Ted lasso um dartboard scene and basically the line is is that like the the meaning the there's no room for curiosity and ego and there's no room for ego and curiosity and what one of what our goals should be is to be truly curious and being in being curious you want to know what the truth is.

You're in pursuit of understanding, not in pursuit of elevation of self, right? And that's what really good Learners do and thing I Think a lot of the things that are sort of like book knowledge or like I know the formula. It's like okay, but what do you do with the formula? What is the what is the meaning of the formula. in real life and I wanted to bring up uh what Michael said said here because I think it's I think it's really pertinent. says I'm generally better with the math once I grasp the concept of a topic.

it ties together in my head and Michael is a really brilliant guy and he's very good at math. I Don't think hardly anyone would say Michael's not good at math, but uh, but I think he represents what a lot of Trad people uh, feel because you didn't get into the trades because you L traditional education. Most people that's not you know that's not why you're in the trades. you're in it because you like working with your hands.

and so doing book workk for the sake of book work is isn't that much fun. But if you understand how something works and you have a problem to solve now, all of a sudden, even math becomes enjoyable. Uh, and that's a You know again, as a homeschooling parent, that's something you learn really quick. Like if your kid doesn't want to learn something Heaven help you.

that's that. Force learning. But as soon as you can trigger a curiosity to solve a problem, there's absolutely nothing that will stop them, um, from learning what they need to learn in order to do it. Um, so anyway, just just a just a few things there.

But I think I do think curiosity is really, really key to all of this. Yeah, I so I was thinking about I I think I still don't understand it? um I'm just going to say that. but like I know that like you know if if you have a shorted compressor where there's no resistance, the amps go way up and the breaker trips like that's how I understand it and like and but like that's that's like well well the example that I always use like to explain it for people who like don't get that is like I I tell the story of the time I cut off a piece of electric heater because it was damaged so I had an electric heat kit I was restringing a heat kit I like bent it right at the end and like broke off, broke off a couple of the wraps and I was like well I can just bend it back out and I can connect it and then that'll work because I just have it's just a shorter heater, right? So that's just going to be. it's just going to produce less heat and have less current, right? Wrong.

It draws more current because the resistance is lower and that's Om. Law 's law teaches you that And if I had thought I mean me of all all people I was absolutely the propositional knowledge nerd kid who was like I know to answer to all their stuff you know my daddy was was an electrician um but I even I didn't think about it when the time actually came to apply it and that's so just so doing that in the socratic way would be like. So what do you think happened? Or actually taking an electric heat kit and doing that and then actually letting them? So what do you think's going to happen when I do this and we do that all the time with um, light bulbs and series and series parallel circuits and all that and they're always surprised by the outcome. You know they always put two light bulbs in that's going to be more light.

You know it's like, actually, no, it's not, it's actually half as much. You know it's it's uh, pretty interesting. So there lots of lots of stuff like that. that again, using the Socratic method um, allows people to feel like they're discovering it themselves.

Even though you know the answer, you're acting like you don't know the answer. and what's fun is a lot of times you think you know the answer and you're acting and then you realize oh. actually I didn't know the answer and I just learned something from my student which has happened probably like a thousand times with me. so I'm sure I'm sure the same thing with you guys, right? Matthew At the simposium, bring me a rolling chair and a refrigerant scale and uh I can help you understand electricity almost well.

Okay, I remember that one y I remember that one it's a good one. So I I did want to touch on um like train like being together in person kind of what? Brian like you know Brian kind of hit on um yeah, like the teachers being in a group actually teaching PE people and um Craig to I'll put you on the spot a little bit here. Brian had said that um that coming to the Symposium for you was um I guess a little bit a little bit unique in the sense that uh, maybe you were sort of typically known as a bit of a Lone Ranger educator can can you? would you mind speaking to that a little bit? uh well Brian said something like you got know I just like Matt stop stop No What I said was hey Craig could you tell us about your experience and connecting to community? in at the Symposium for the good yeah no um it. it's uh, you know Brian invited me down.

this was like what three four years ago or whatever. Hey, let's hang out, let's get together you know we we got together and uh then he invited me down to the Symposium and I'm like you know what? I'm just so busy with doing everything I don't know if I can do it I decided oh yeah I'll go down I'll check it out. uh and he asked me you know to teach there too and uh I think uh it it really connects the dots with how much it means to people. so it helps somebody like myself who is trying to make all these videos make these books and you know you don't get to you.

You do get to teach you know every once in a while with with groups and things like that. But really being there with a large group of people that really value uh, each other, you know, value what you've done, value. What a lot of other people that are in that room that are you know respected, you know, like you got huge awesome people there you know and there. and it was not like I Initially thought I always thought it was kind of like when I grew up in the trades.

I it was a little rough. The people were rough. you know they were like they didn't want to help you because then you know maybe you get the raise they wouldn't get the raise. all this dumb stuff.

So I'm like I don't know what that's going to be like going out there I know Brian but I don't know any of these other people you know I met Tai I'm like man, who are you what's good wow what's going on here you know and uh it just uh. it was very good and eye openening and encouraging for me. Uh and what I find now is I Get to you know encourage other people when people come up to me you know I you know? uh I want to ask them you know what's up with your what's up with your life? You know what I mean like what? you know, what's the deal there you know are you working all the time or you know you got to remember that work is to provide for your family? uh so like it made a big difference for me coming out of say my show are coming out and just meeting everybody yeah um so I um just recent I started my own business about 14 or 15 months ago and the the community of people that have told me like have helped me like hey make sure you price things correctly like do not undercharge because like just that kind of stuff like I feel like I'm probably five years of where I should be because I just didn't have to learn all that stuff on my own. um yeah just the yeah and having a just having a support system being being alone like before I even found the podcast um Brian's podcast um yeah I just I didn't know like what things were available I mean I was just on Wikipedia trying to look up stuff about air conditioning and like you know electrical phases and stuff.

um and so just to find this group of people who are like really excited and super interested and most of the guys I was working with were just kind of like you just show up and go to work which is fine. Um, but I didn't even know there were people who liked air conditioning this much. I guess that's what I'll say and that was kind of eye opening Me: Oh wow, there's some really, uh, intense people you know who. Sometimes it's a little disturbing isn't it? Yeah, it's like yeah, yeah.

but I think kind of to your point. One of one of the really important things that I always encourage people because there is a there's a tension there like Craig mentioned. um like you don't want to be working all the time. A lot of the guys who I came up through writing with and whatever I mean it's like it became their whole life.

but they still weren't encouraged like they weren't They weren't Uh, I'm going to use some kind of cheesy words here, but they did. They didn't have any joy in their work. Um, they still. it was still their whole life.

but they were kind of miserable about it. Uh, and that's horrible. Like if you're gonna do something eight plus hours a day, you might as well find some joy in it. And this same thing is true.

If you're teaching it, the same thing is true. If you're if you're going through school or you're learning from someone else, like, why not find some joy in doing the thing that you have to do anyway it it's not like it's not like actually enjoying your work and being excited to learn and learning and all that stuff is like taking away from your personal life. In fact, if you're happy at work, it's probably going to be a lot easier to be happy at home. Um so I think it's a a lot of people get the wrong idea and you'll get people who have this.

It's like man: I I go to a job for a job man I'm just I'm clocking in I'm getting my pay I'm doing my thing I'm riding my boat. You know it's like oh fine, but like why not just enjoy it? Like why not do a little better and like find something you can be excited about because I've actually gone through Seasons even in the Hbac school era where it's like it gets hard and then you connect a community again of people who are like, encouraging and excited and they bring up something new that you haven't thought about in a while or you've never thought about. you know, like we always say at the beginning of the podcast, um something something that's like oh yeah I I forgot to remember that um and then it trigger some new thought and then you're off on Off to the Races again and that's that's what Community I think does and for me I'm just blessed I mean like I Remember the first time I did a video with Craig and people would ask like how'd you get that guy it's like I just asked him uh or like Dan Hollahan it's like how'd you get Dan Hollahan on your podcast I sent him an email and said hey, you want to come on my podcast like that's all I did it wasn't anything you know it's like I'm not anyone special um but when you when you actually get to spend time with people who you you really value and really think are super cool, um that that does, it makes you better. uh it makes you uh, more full and more round as a as a person, as a technician as a business owner.

whatever it is that you're that you're doing and um yeah and and again as somebody just mentioned this again because they're curious people you know surrounding yourself with curious people who are interested who aren't promoting ego which is the problem I have like because there's a lot of like business groups and stuff where it's like you go in the room and it's just like yeah, 10x man we're going to be oh we're going to kill it. Oh I'm awesome I'm going to be a billionaire. You know all this stuff and it's like man, that just isn't my jam like I This doesn't feel like room for curiosity, it feels like just this absolute race to Annihilation rather than curiosity interest Joy You know, uh, all that stuff. So that's what I like about the trade.

Like you can get super nerdy about the technical parts of our trade or even business or leadership without becoming like I don't know like Jim Jim Rat Bro Dude, you know like I because there's a lot of lot of out there too I know you have thoughts on that Ty I I I do um I keep my eyes on a large part of the trade because even if it's a concept or a side of the trade, I don't really enjoy I want to know what's happening I don't want to be blindsided and some of the the groups will just really I mean it just could really take the life out of take the joy out of you. So I've learned to to still see what's happening but limit myself. but I've always loved what I've done I've loved to trade because it's no matter what happens like life can take everything from you and this trade has always had something I can start over with it's it's taken me around the world. it's introduced me to people that I never thought I'd meet it's it's been a it's been amazing and to you know to sharpen that and build on that it's always been great and then when I got to teach and be able to give back I say when I learn started teaching was the best thing for me because I realized how stupid I was and how much I needed to learn and the more I learned the more I grow.

But then I was getting all this information and the right way of doing stuff and things that I'd been doing wrong that I didn't know I'm starting to share that I get you know so much push back on. oh you don't need a micro engage and oh you don't need superheat like all this stuff like no like I've been doing superheat my entire career. That's not the thing I want to fight about. and then when Hbac school came along and it was a community of people like um, we can disagree and we can argue and we can.

You know, like get all into the little details about ridiculous stuff but we all care and we all at the end support each other. and if somebody comes and attacks one of us like we stand together like no, that's my buddy I may disagree with them but that's between us. you know, don't attack each of us and it's so great. And then when you did the Symposium there was before that everybody I felt like was segregated like in their own little their own little worlds.

and in HVAC School everybody comes together. You got manufacturers, you got students, you got instructors, you got the building science, you got like all all these people come together and we can talk about different things and be inspired. and we talk about what we love of the trade. and there's all these people from all different walks of life out there and you know, meeting and talking, having discussions and it to me it's the like the best thing in HVAC and sometimes I forget how good it is because I go look someplace else like hey guys, where's the love and so I I just love all these and I know it's not just you Brian I know you don't like compliments I don't either, but it's a group.

It took a leadership to make that happen and there's a whole lot of people that make Hbac School possible. including you know, the sponsors. I Know everybody wants free education and free learning, but nothing is free. Somebody's paying for it.

Whether it's you know a company or if it's a person doing it on their own or somebody having to you know, do books. something is somebody's paying for that. So you know, take that into account and you know if they're sponsors of of anything, let's let them know. Hey I appreciate you sponsoring this because it helps me learn and uh and I love the fact that you're all here learning and I can't wait to be at the Symposium and go meet all of my friends again and see them in person and it's just it's just the greatest and I'm getting carried away but it's just awesome I Love it No! I I I feel the same way about everybody who attends and um, the sponsors and all that stuff.

I It's interesting because you just you when you can connect with the humanity uh, like even these companies. they they people behind them like and when you can talk to the people, uh then you start to see. you know some you see start to see a whole different thing and it doesn't mean you agree and you it doesn't mean you think everything's great all the time. um I don't I don't know if this is a secret to anybody, but um I don't love every product that my sponsors uh, have and I don't love every single thing they do and I don't agree with everything.

uh I don't have to. they are investing in education and that in and of itself says something about them and I think that's cool and that's what I say all the time. It's like the best example of this is Kores. um Kor is you know they're they're used to be Dupont like they're they're the freon people, they're the pureon people, they're the and there's all these conspiracy theories and all this stuff.

But then you talk to Dr Chuck Chuck. all good and you just realize like this is just a good guy or Don Gillis like these are really good dudes who know a lot about chemistry and about HVAC and it's they're They're not like part of the Illuminati like they're You know they're they're just good guys. Um, same thing is true recently. Um Michael Kane Who's the who's the president? CEO of UEI has started just emailing me and he just sends these really encouraging.

They're not like they're not like business emails, it's not about marketing, it's not about UEI. It's just like personal stuff like um, you know after the Thanksgiving uh, a tech tip that I wrote which wasn't a tech at all. um, he just said some really nice things and shared a lot about his life and we wrote back and forth and that's kind of what Craig talks about a lot and we've talked about a few times like that's the good stuff. Uh, and HVAC becomes a context for human connection and Community it's not about perfection or about grandstanding or about saying oh, you know, like this product is better than that product and and or an agenda.

It doesn't have to be it, it it is sometimes still and we all have that in us, but it really doesn't need to be that way. Uh, at least not I Like in business, sometimes it just feels like that is the status quo, but it doesn't need to be that all the time. And education I think is this: I'm going to use a woke word Here is a safe space for us to be able to just be curious and be human and enjoy people's company and talk about things that we care about, right? And that's that's a neat context to have that thoughts. Craig I Think that it's nice to go somewhere like this the Symposium and have basically a lot of the people vetted for you already so you are just there soaking it in.

You know you. you know there's been years of relationship building like that that you and your the leadership team have done. You know in order to have the right people there and it's just huge. You know of course I know it's limited, you know you wish you could have more, you know.

and and as far as teaching and and uh, so it's it's it's nice because you don't You don't have to do that random I Wonder if this person's good to listen to I wonder if this person's good to listen to you. You know you can just come together and and encourage one another. I mean that's what I got that first year man I was almost in tears mult like I don't even know how many times you know what I mean because it's like you connect with people that you know. they describe how much all of this stuff means to them.

You know you and you know everybody you know like what all of this and and that's why I like to encourage even some of the some of the people that are helping you know set that up and everything like that I'm like dude, you don't even know you know I mean like how big of a deal this is uh you know, even like to the point where like lives get changed and stuff like that like you know, like they realize like I don't have to I'm not by myself anymore like I like I can learn I can be encouraged. It's not maybe this negative atmosphere that's out, maybe in their workplace because they happen to be at the wrong company you know or or whatever it may be at that point in time and they come there and it's like holy crap dude, man, you know you are encouraged, You are learning you. You get the Curiosity You get the relationship building. You get all of that type of stuff and uh, that's a big deal.

You know when somebody has those things you know I think that there's really nothing stopping them from from their growth in their future, so it's pretty big deal. Yeah, and and so one of the things that when I first started doing this whole like free putting stuff on the internet for free and this and I was not the first one by far I mean like there's a huge inheritance of people who had to really take the arrows in the back on this stuff. um there was. there was some resistance right? um especially from some of the traditional education Outlets because they're like because I didn't always say everything right like I tried my best but I said a few dumb things here and there and uh, quite a few.

Let's be honest. um and uh Ty's raising his hand because he knows I said a few dumb things I'm I know I know what you're saying, that's all of us but like. but then when that happens and what you do is this is this is a tip for anyone who wants to connect with. Like Your Heroes just pay homage to people.

like instead of like being defensive when somebody calls you out, be like yeah, I'm sorry, uh, you're right. uh I'll yeah, yeah, thank you. um I appreciate it and then do that publicly do that with intentionality. um I can't tell you how many times guys like um Jim Bergman um and many, many others I mean just tons and tons of people Jason Obj over just tons of people have said things that were corrective.

um uh that were really really helpful to me. Um, so it's just and that's true inside Kaos as well like I have a lot of really great. That's another thing I always have to I have to remember to to mention more often is that a lot of the education that I get comes from the amazing technicians. And Trades people within my own company.

Um, but being willing to pay homage to that rather than taking credit for yourself. Everybody wins right? You don't have to. You can have a platform, you can do training and have friends in the industry who are also selling products who are ALS So selling education who are also I mean you know Esco is a sponsor now of Hbac school Whoever thought that would happen you know? but it's because I think they're great and I think they do really good work and like Eugene I think is one of the coolest people. uh that I know in so many ways and has been such an encouragement to me.

uh and yeah. so like you can work with people NCI is an example I never thought I would be. you know buddies with the NCI guys you know like they have a very different business model than I do but now we're like collaborating on so many things. Measure: Quii is collaborating with NCI uh as well.

There's just a lot of really neat things that are happening on that front. I had a guy named you know down a guy named Craig down to my junkyard you know and we and we shot videos with like a cat running in the way and he was like freaking out you like video is not perfect I don't know so it took it took hours to cut those cats out. they were going through your shirt and everything like I It was like magic that we to do cats every there's just literally just a jungle of cats everywhere you look. Were they singing? they were? Well so I don't know if you know this about about uh Craig but he's sort of like Ace Ventura You know he just like the animals, just they just come to him.

Oh you remember that I do one of the fun anytime: I go outside to make a video. It's like everything lights off, all the birds, all the the squirrels. the raccoon like raccoons are coming over like hopping over to the camera like what is baiting in the back of my leg. Yeah that was one of the funniest.

um Craig broke into this monologue in my living room describing what the Woodland creatures do whenever he's trying to make a video. and I I don't think I've ever laughed harder in my entire life. so uh, thank you for that too. Turns out Craig is also a funny guy.

um, who who knew We all thought he was a really grumpy stuffed shirt based on how he does his videos, but it turns out he's hey, I'm just trying to stay on point I'm just trying to get the I'm just trying to get the details. hey you're just get. you know we need to get that. We need to prepare that system for charge so you absolutely nail it on.

You know what? I only start joking when somebody gives me an absolute large amount of ammo against them. like constantly joking like like Brian like w just a normal life a conversation I do I load it