All right we are live to the to the Internet So I'm here I Know the entire internet is watching us simultaneously. Um, they just can't get enough. Yes, uh so I'm here with Richard Trui uh, who is well known from This Old House uh HVAC and plumbing. Do you consider yourself more of a HVAC guy? or more of a more of a plumbing guy? Or just I'm careful to say Plumbing Heating Cooling I I hedge all those bets.

It all. Yeah, yeah. and and also with Rstd Are you still with RSD or is that all over? Officially, Evan's taking it over Evan's got it. Okay, cool.

Well Evans I don't know how I Insult Okay, right. So you con and insult people, That's it. That's that's what Consultants do I'm in a fabulous place, let both of my boys change the world in their own way. That's really great.

I don't know how uh on that topic. Um, they're different in a lot of ways, but they're both just great human beings. I'm not sure quite how you did that, but um, how to be their mother? That's that's what I was thinking. that's what I was just imagining I haven't met, but I'm imagining.

that's the case. No, they're they're They're great folks and they're doing really good work. Yeah and I had to hedge my bets I I had 10. Just so that way have higher odds than at least a couple work out and then uh and then Dominic with NCI.

Obviously we've been doing uh, a lot more together. He gave a tremendous uh presentation yesterday that was really well, uh, well appreciated. So thank you. Yeah, and your son's in the business too, right? Yeah.

Brought him in about 12 years ago and he's now our uh, Sales and Operations Director kind of learning the business from the inside out for NCI Y Yeah, wonderful, y y it's really good stuff. Um, so I just want to talk a little bit about the industry I mean you and I have talked about this before? Um, what are you seeing? Uh, either of you can answer this as you see fit, but like, what are you seeing changing on the positive side I want to keep it positive. We know we talk so much about, like the challenges that we face in the trades with uh, guidance counselors and all that and and uh, what are you seeing that's maybe on the on the positive side I I Think that through through the covid thing the one industry that was happening and still hot pun intended was Heating and Cooling and I think that, uh, on the inverse of that, this that liberal arts degree that was now nothing more than a bad Zoom call. Um, meant that a lot of people you know a lot of parents will not fight having their kids go into a skilled trade and you know, you know.

So I want to keep it positive? Um, meaning the odds are Stak Again, so because you can literally get into the game entry level, learn and without the debt with a burden of debt you can. You can be in this game and they they need you in every economy when necessary in every single point of Market It's so it's um I don't know if enough has changed yet, but it's uh, this Market factors that are going to make it easier to convince people. Yeah, you know. so I'm seeing that I'm seeing more um young people who I never would have thought would have considered the trades kind of reaching out to me before.

it was a lot of convincing. Yeah, which is a which is a tough slog but I had, uh just an example. just a young man who I know, friend of a friend son um from the other side of the country who contacted me and he's in college right now and he's like, you know I'm really thinking about the trades you know, can you give me some advice and I'm seeing more of that happening? What are you seeing? Dominic oh absolutely and I I think with this the newer Generations I guess both. Uh, you know from Millennials on forward Jen Zers and so forth there seems to be a renewed interest because of the technology side of the trade that's been such a a big part of it.

Uh, one one story and this happened a few years ago. my son's best friend was cutting meat at um one of the big retailers. shall remain unnamed yes, out of high school first he did some pest control stuff I believe something like that lawn treatment I forget. But anyway I talked to him I said you know you really ought to enter the H industry his name's Andrew and he's like well I don't even know where to start I said 'y you know what go to a Vo Vocational School here locle in Cleveland and um, get get through the first part of the you know the first half or so of the of the Uh curriculum and I'll see if I can help get you placed somewhere.

And so long story short, so he did that. He wasn't even three months in. had him interview with local contractor because of his attitude and his just people skills. he just loved to talk to people.

um he immediately was hired. finished votch school. he actually came to work for us for a while. yeah in in our uh customer support but was interesting is he ended up leaving and now he's uh, head of Maintenance and he's what 33 years old head of Maintenance at the baseball stadium in Cleveland OH Nice and including all the Hvc mechanical systems and so forth.

So there's a success story and you just don't know where you know what paths I know. When we had our panel discussion, we talked about different training paths. Yeah and there are so many career paths I should say for an HVAC technician someone entering the industry and it's you know you kind of want to guide them to where they can. Really? Excel Yeah and and I I think that's a very positive thing in this industry.

Yeah, that's one of the like I think a lot about um and I talked about it. but this idea of not seeing everybody in the industry is this like you're you're either this type of person or you're not. It's like there's room for every different type of person uh, in the trades and you talked about in the past Richard when I've talked to you about like wait a minute, are you talking to are you talking to me I was about to talk to you I'm I'm a Gen Xer, Gen Xer trapped in a baby Boomer's body. This is the biggest problem we have.

Yeah, everybody younger than 20 doesn't want to see anybody. they only want to be Yeah here it's the total drug. Yeah so I'm sorry you I just want to make my put the phone down I was waiting I was like I was like well maybe he's doing something important. you know, maybe it's somebody important like Norm I don't know, no it's funny.

um no. but like so so obviously you've been around multigenerational uh on the show multigenerational business um having worked in and obviously plumbing and HVAC and all of that, um what are you seeing as far as because obviously your sons are are in the business to some degree you know they're They're involved in the business, involved in the trades as well. um what are you seeing as far as Um shifts? I guess in um kind of demographics like what? Because the thing that the thing that always strikes me is like like you said like now kids are are interested you everything is accessed through their phones. I I mean you talked a lot about um that craftsmanship about a prior generation really being you know looking at their pipe work.

uh you gave that example like just looking at what they've accomplished and feeling really proud of it. Are you seeing any shifts there? Not enough meaning um the the point I Want to make for all of us in the industry like you're in position to hire people is my father always lived we we he was the third generation I was the fourth was always to. We had this slogan came from a guy from Florida named Paul Rilla who used to speak at the national level. He says adopt one kid adopt one kid and we would.

We would do Outreach to find any kid anywhere and just bring him into the company just and try to train him. We knew that he may not, he or she may not stay there forever. but we had this passion to sort of find somebody's son and just and find anybody we could. and I And we got to make sure that people still don't look and say I'm gonna wait for the perfect kid to come out of the Vot tech school.

No right, You got to bring them just and it doesn't matter what the craft is and whether or not it's regular Copper Tree or whatever. Just get somebody and let them feel your culture and see that they could do stuff and win them along. and that's what we we got. It's got to start at the Grassroots level we keep.

we talked outside about you know, Government funding and grants and and you know you know you'll you'll you'll kill yourself trying to get enough people into class. We but we have to just in our local markets. we all know everybody in that local market. Find a kid and just adopt them and get them in and make a difference.

And then I used to I was too young to understand it. You know I'? Well Dad they they won't stay with us. It doesn't matter, right? Doesn't matter. Get them to taste and you've now created the marketplace.

You've sort of educated the your competitors, you know? Yeah, so yeah, that's actually uh, really good advice because one of the things that I've seen recently here at Kaos is um I I have four kids in the business now um two daughters and two sons and I never pushed them into the business but I made it very accessible obviously. Um, but what's happening is now it's become like this cool place for young people to work. yeah, um, kind of a cool entry level job because they they're around other young people and there's an energy and there's It's a training culture here obviously and that's not something that I set out intentionally to do. But you see to your point is that when you are intentional about hey, I'm not, this might not work um but that that argument of like hey well they're not giving the kids coming out of trade schools aren't worth anything anymore, you know I'm just I'm just gonna give up on this generation just Gen Xers That's all we're going to do.

You know, some of those people though are their own worst enemies. They probably aren't good teachers in their own right. Yeah, you know they want to keep their power. There's a whole sort of weird power struggle with the mechanics the the genius and you know you know you, you as an apprentice have to learn it.

We have to just say, how do we make ourselves? Expendable how do we? How do we teach people so that they could take over our job and that's not what always happens. Yeah, so I would say that you know it's interesting. If you're going to Apprentice a kid with one of your more experienced people, try to Apprentice them with one of the most the youngest people. Yeah, because they can relate to each other I See that with my son when he's here at at Symposium for example or other conferences we were at Ahr last week.

Yeah, he he was a magnet for kids his age. I say kids, you know kids and it the relationship building and the dynamic that you see between them. Us old folks. That's right, we just don't have that.

Um I mean we? we have a different kind of maget. They look to us for knowledge and experience and so forth. Yeah, but again, they're also a little bit insecure. You know new people coming in and they don't feel is intimidated by someone that looks like they're about their age.

So that might be a a good approach to yeah people. The the other thing is, if you found somebody, it's awful. It's hard to make that last mile. Every contractor Hbac or otherwise says we can't find good people.

and if you have a kid, there's no simple way to get them into a placement program. There's no sort of clearing house. There's no. you know anybody around here is going to call you up and say hey, I got a good kid and because you're the you're the the big dog in this neighborhood.

But you know in every other Market if you got somebody that wanted to, you know it's just how do you. It's almost like you need some sort of uh I guess a clearing house is what I said before. Just some way to say hey, who's who's looking for, who can I get this guy guy girl connected with so yeah and that's one of the things that you've seen that's changed and I'm going to ask you back. Uh Dominic Is there used to be these uh associations? You know, whether it was Rses or whether it was AA or what you know, Bacc or whatever.

Uh, and those organizations still exist. but man, they are having a hard time getting people to meetings those local. The local community that surrounds those associations has decayed and I'm not saying that I'm not. You know saying it's their fault.

it's just a social societal Dynamic that we're seeing. uh and that was a lot of what. there used to be that sort of discourse about uh, about people and about opportunities within the marketplace and that to to a large degree has started to erode. But in NCI I know you think about that a lot.

I mean there is a community that surrounds that. Um, so what do you have to say about that like I Know you think a lot about the processes of business. You know it's yes, it's technical, but it's also taking that technical expertise and applying it in a business structure. Um, do you see an opportunity there in terms of Um providing an on-ramp for Uh for younger workers? I think so.

And and a lot of our training. the way we design our training is it's not just purely technical as you said, because first of all, sitting in a class for eight or 16 or 24 hours of you know, intensive training uh, and it's all technical can get pretty daunting, right. So the other side of it is okay. You learn this concept.

You know how to measure static pressure for example, in a system. how do you talk to the customer about it? What do you say? What terminology do you use And then if you do that and you discover that that's a problem, your blood pressure your systems like through the roof and you're your compressor is going to probably die within a year or so. how do you communicate that to the customer? And what's the opportunity to turn that over into a you know quote? unquote Lead for either yourself or a salesperson? A C Comfort consultant to come in and you know, take it from there and yeah, improve their system. whatever needs to be done.

So you all of our Uh trainings, we try to do that so that they see this is not just hey, I don't necessarily have to be a technician for the rest of my life, right? Some may want to be, and they absolutely that's where they want to be. And but I can move into other things and I can be more involved in the in the business side. And and the other part of it is we try to instill a sense of um, uh, what's the word a culture yeah within you know as part of what we teach, it's like you need to work towards having a culture that Embraces this. Otherwise it's going to be very hard for you to implement this in your So.

those are some of the things and is that could that be attractive to the younger generation I Believe. So because you know there, there's this thing I I Read some articles recently they want to be part of something bigger. Yeah, they want to contribute. Uh, especially the Gen Xers.

You know they're not all lazy. we all do so forth. Yeah, anybody does. Yeah I Want to I Want to jump on that that point Dominic that I See this in the YouTube World in our industry where the people in our industry that get onto YouTube they talk down to the viewer trying to prove how much they know about they are.

Yeah yeah, they just want to show off how much they know about late and heat and all of it. and so and so that same thing happens in the process of trying to explain your quote to a consumer. where you talk talking in tons where they don't know what a ton is and they're talking down and they're talking down and so um, the only reason I've survived 40 whatever years on this show is that I always try to talk to the third grade which is my level. you know what I mean But to talk to the third grade technically? yeah and that's what we miss when somebody comes out of your 16 hours and they just learned about psychometric charts and and and they want to explain it.

They want to to show a gauge and they want to show. Yeah Oh let me show you and so what we got to do is just figure out how to talk and explain it. which you always have to use word, pictures and similes to say you know this is this which is your example of the heart and the blood blood pressure. It's perfect, but we don't do enough of it.

We talk in this technical triple speak that and then because most one thing people know nothing about in their life is the mechanical system, right? It all happens by Magic Yeah so by the way I Thought you said we were speaking in tongues, not tons. We sound like right? right? No, absolutely true. and that's the thing. Simple, Simple.

Yeah. another big part of it. and again, this is could be fun for someone in the industry. On the sales side, let's call it sales.

I I Call it the helping to buy side. the key to all of this and especially more advanced things that we're trying to sell them to really give them Solutions is you have to educate the consumer, not not educate them by teaching them CF and everything else, but just teach them about their home right. Things they've always suspected about their home like this just doesn't feel right. This is just isn't working right.

But everybody's come out here say well, it's just the way it is. but instead, if you spend the time and you make them a little smarter, first of all, they're probably going to choose you right? Uh, to do their work. All these amazing devices like there's all kinds of displays here about you know, field piece and navak and all those guys. Those tools are also now so amazing to educate the consumer to say look at this now because everything else is invisible.

you know? So right? Um, it's a powerful time if you're willing to talk to them. So yeah, it's getting better and better. I am a simple kind of silly example. and and this is what happens as you get older and I realized this is my stories become less and less relevant because I'm in the field less and less you know? Uh, but but not too long ago I was at a client house and I just decided I was going to run some service calls for a little bit and hopped in the truck and uh, and I did that that I just took uh I think it measure quick or the field field piece Job Link app and um as I was going through the customers following me around I was just like well yeah look at what I'm looking at here I'm just looking at the temperature air coming out of the vents and and different things like that and um and you can see that client they don't understand necessarily what I'm doing but they but they see the value in uh the rigor that's being put into it and and that can lead to a lot of interest.

One of the things that I was able to do in Chicago was um walk the floor with a bunch of high schoolers. That was one of the one of the coolest things I got to do and and it was so awesome to to do that and see how excited they got about things like the field piece, connected probes and all that stuff like that was uh just really neat and because initially they're looking at it's just so big like you I feel that when I walk the floor of ahr it's just overwhelming and and that's how they're first like wow this is so big but then when you can hone in and and just give them a little bit a little bit of a picture on how that all works, it's really, um you saw them, you saw them light up and and and get engaged and to to some degree I think even clients it's not that want them to get nerdy about the same things we're nerdy about. but just to see that? Yeah, there's there's value here, which then helps establish value for what we do, which then allows us to do what we do. Our bedside manner could be better.

Plus they're used to. As as you mentioned, they're used to this. Yeah, and a lot of those connected tools and software are on this right? That's also where they get intrigued. It's like wait, I really know how to use this? So all I gotta do is figure this other part out.

Gives a little bit of comfort. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the other thing that we're the industry is afraid of is price as you know and so we try to avoid it by sort of talking fast and just trying to do it, then leave leaving a proposal or whatever and I remember somebody this I've been exposed to a lot of people that could sell equipment in this and one guy was so sharp he just say people say well you know how much how much is it and he says well, you're right, how much is a bag of groceries and the consumers was like what do you mean they said what's in the bag you know and all of a sudden it was just sort of disarm and you know another one was you know I I you know I don't I don't know uh you know that's a lot of money. They'll say I would say yeah, it's unbelievable You know I run the tape and I'm still amazed at it and you know you say I remember when it was only 800 bucks? you know, blah.

So it's this sort of shared shared commiserate. But we could be better in that not being direct about pricing, you know they'll say well, your money more money I said yeah, You know yeah, there's a lot of good restaurants in town. You know what I mean and I think the big part of it is if you build enough value as you're visiting with that customer, the price becomes almost a correct yeah AB does with me. That's right.

Yeah, we see that all the time. You know it was an $188,000 yeah uh. renovation with some new equipment. uh and and everybody else came in at $8,000 Yeah and the customer like well they must have missed something.

Yeah, you know they if you build that trust and that's the key if you build that relationship. Yeah, like you said you know always feel like irrelevant. One of my other closing lines were was you know what it is a lot of money but I would rather see you winse in pain once and then thank me every winter and every summer for the rest of your life. Here they go Okay right's a Salesman he is.

he is. You can see it. Yeah now there's nothing better than a Salesman who actually carried tools I've at it for 30 40 years and guess what? All those systems went in perfectly. They work perfectly and they're now on their second generation.

They said, you know I got calls people. You know what? You were here 30 years ago and and has it been maintained? No. Is it still working? Yeah, So yeah. So yeah.

no. When you think about um or Ross and Evan and now going into those jobs as to consult on them 30 years later, right? right? Yeah, my dad really messed this. No, they no, not no, no, no no. and that's actually what you know.

Like So there's a lot of times uh we will say things and uh Jordan you can come in, you know it's not. It's no problem, just have a seat. It's not like we're live on the Internet It's no big deal. Oh, is this is this on yeah you? You don't literally have to come in I Know you're probably on a phone call and that's why you were coming in here for the quiet.

but okay, you're good. All right. Okay, you're good. great.

um no. uh I forget what I was going to say now you totally distracted me. It's fine, it's it's all good. Um, pink slip will be in the no.

Who's out here? No. but like you're lying about, you're lying about uh what? You know how much there's to B at groceries? That's exactly what we're talking about. And I know what I was gonna say is that one of the really big factors in terms of attracting people to the trade or having I don't even like saying people say how do you get more people to do this How do you get more people to do that No if you align things then people just show up right then they then they just knocked on your door. Hey can I get a job which is what we which is what we want to see.

But one of the really key things is are we paying people really well? Let's be honest, if people can really be well compensated as they grow through this trade, it makes a huge difference. And a huge part of that is are we charging appropriately for what we doing? Enough money to keep good people? Yeah. And are we bringing a ton of value, right? Because there's a lot of companies that my dad always uses. The Uh uses the example.

He's like some people when they fish, you know it's like they're throwing out this gigantic hook and a fish almost never bites. But when it does bite, they rip its head off. You know, like that's a lot of the people use that model nowadays. Super high ticket.

You know, really really high tickets and a lot of marketing. Uh and I and I would just like to see more contractors do kind of what you're saying which is you're confident you're going to provide a great value and you're charging appropriately, but the client's GNA Be happy for the next 20 years with the decision. How when you talk to a contractor and they say yeah, I Get every job Really? Let me let me look at your balance sheet. Yeah, every single job close All of them.

Yeah, that's a very bad time. I Can admit this I Can admit this now because the Statute of Limitations has gone by that we used to have competition in our local Nebor neighborhood and if I was interviewing somebody to come look at a job and I found out that they were lying or they were doing to just all about price, price price. I would always just say well hold on a minute, let me just go and I would pretend to go out to the dispatch board and say ah, I just checked our workload and I just we we're gonna. We're two months out now three months out so and I would say let me just think about who and then I would always recommend the same one contractor and I literally sent every bad customer I could get to him and literally he's out of business now.

It's great advice. Richard We're really encour. We're here to encourage the industry with no, no I just mean but I knew that if if if we weren't going to be encumbered with you know that tire kicker and somebody lied to me on on the on the interview. but no, we haven't got any crisis and I knew it was different I would just say okay yeah it's funny that you say that because the first three years and and Kos first three years of this business when it was pretty much just me and like you know, my brother-in-law helping me do installs I got every horrible job, every lead I got was awful and I'm pretty sure somebody was doing that to me.

Maybe probably it wasn't me because I was pretty far away miles away. Yeah, like hey, I know this kid. he'll take anything. Yeah, he never loses a job.

Yeah, you know the the other thing about make go going back to making this industry appealing to Young to new people young or or not young because they maybe they're leaving different careers and coming in is the income potential When you compare it to somebody going to college and there's been all kinds of studies done on this, it takes literally something like eight years for the college graduate to catch up with the income, the earning if you will of the a good HVAC technician and and he's also he or she is also saddled with a bunch of debt usually right so that it might even take 12 years to tr catch up like for like so and a lot of people don't understand that in in the trades in general, but especially in the mechanical trades. Uh, people can make good money. Yeah, you got to pay them well. Yeah, uh.

but I I think that's kind of a well-kept secret that we need to somehow get out to the public that you know you could do really well here. financially it's pretty. Recession Proof People need to be cooled. They need to be heated.

Yeah, they could use water they need every now and plumbing kind of need that. Yeah, um yeah no. I The thing that I think so that I've said that a lot. The the only kind of caveat that I would give is that um, contractors need to be really good about describing career paths to their employees because that's the thing that I think younger people and I and I would include myself in this are super averse to.

It's like hey, maybe maybe it's uh, maybe it's low risk. you know, like for me being without work, maybe the pay is good. but I want to see where can I go? Where can I head? because you you know you look at somebody with a degree? Yeah, maybe they, maybe they don't use it. Maybe whatever.

but a lot of the highest paid people in society you see have degrees and I think that that feeling of stuckness I talk a lot about this in my book. Yeah, uh, people think you get stuck in the trades and that to me is a huge message. but it really isn't coming upon the contractors to make it clear. hey, here's your path.

You know you don't have to become a Salesman to make a ton of money. You don't have to become a manager. You can do either of those things. that's an option, but there are also a lot of other options that allow you to to progress.

I Think share this story with you when we did our panel discussion uh, a contractor I was talking to you know has wellestablished career paths for you know you can go this channel. you can go this channel Etc but you know I I guess uh he was interviewing someone and they said well what's your goal for me? What would you where would you like to see me go Yeah and this owner of this company said I would love to see you outgrow our company like what a great you know, uh that you're getting across to that that potential employee saying you know you're more important than just you know where can I Where can I pigeon hole you keep you for the in the headlock for the next 20 years. That gives them the roots and wings idea that you give them Roots but you give them the wings that they could go right? Beyond So yeah, I think a lot about that thing that you just said. but but I would actually switch it just a little bit.

Is that I Want to? um I want to outrun I Want to create opportunities that outrun my employees growth. Which means that, um, every time they're growing I'm creating that next opportunity I think I think you're GNA do that I think you're doing that. Oh well. thanks.

That's very nice. It's pretty special here. Yeah, no, it's it. It's um, yeah.

the industry's been really good to me. I know it's been really good to you guys. um I think I I don't know I'd like to end with a story of some sort so I'm sure you guys have some. I I'll I'll give you I'll give you a second here I know Richard always has something in the in the bag.

Um, but uh. I mean I'll just start with myself so you have something to think about. But just like this, kind of like this generational investment thing. um, a lot of people don't know this.

I don't think I I don't know that I hardly ever talk about this in the podcast, but my first actual job was working uh, as an electrical Apprentice uh in grocery stores, pushing a scaffold around and all that. and uh, and my uncle is was and he still is. He's still in the business. He he is our actual head of construction now for the business.

Actually, on the org chart, he's under me, which makes me very uncomfortable. That's not that's not real. You know it's not fair. It's not real.

Um, but anyway uh but he you? It's just it was always simple things. even at 145 15 years old. you know taking a fluorescent light and being like okay, here's how you put this thing together and then giving that constant feedback. It was never um well that sucks.

You know, like you didn't do it but it was always like hey, you can do it a little faster, you can do it a little better. hey this was a little loose. make sure you tighten the tabs on the end. you know that kind of consistent because I don't I Don't think I was born as like a tremendous hand skills guy, you know? um, but it just that investment uh in me made all the difference.

and that's a thing that I think a lot of us can learn from. It's like sometimes we think we have to change the entire system and and obviously to some degree like NCI you're doing a great job of that. um but it's more so about that. Like you said that, that young person in front of you and being patient enough to say okay, slight adjustment, slight adjustment because then you learn that's that's the way you actually grow in the trades.

Well I I thought about. they asked me to be interviewed for the show and sort of my career. So I it made me think about this question before and I it reminded me that I'm part of a continuum sort of you know, fourth generation so 1902 family business and then in that Continuum when I first was an apprentice, the guy that I worked under was a guy named Bill Genson He had been there 50 years so and that was in 1960. So he he had known my greatr, my grandfather really well, my greatr.

but he had told me about life as an apprentice where they would go on the street cars with canvas bags with sticks of sticks of thre brass to sort of deliver this new thing called Plumbing it was the new you know the Iron Age was just that just happened. So so and I learn all this stuff and then there's another guy that was from Pennsylvania he taught me these skills, he was in the Navy but I and so those things happen where I Mentor it under those people and then I get this opportunity to talk to America and I'm looking at old stuff and because of those mentors I knew what those things were. you know the old stuff and I sort of felt like I was there I was not there. but it was this Continuum of where we are in part of this grander fabric of providing comfort and all this other stuff.

So it was sort of and I just hope that we can keep that sort of thing where the people that work at Kalos adopt these kids and bring them along and then they they look back 40 years from now and say yeah I I Started this great place and this this you know there are companies like youor and our family business and all those others around the country that are just fabulous people doing good work and it drives me crazy. when the guys like Mike Holmes you know is always that TV show where they're always trying to catch the contractor being bad, it's like that's that's like shooting fish in a barrel. it's like you know, you know and that gives this terrible impression in every Market there were these amazing people companies, organizations that are just doing great stuff and yeah, what you said actually reminded me of a conversation I had earlier today because a lot of the conversations um in the industry right now and I and I'm very quick to say I I I do not get the right to say what's good or bad I can only say what I say microphone I have a microphone right and I have a loud mouth and I talk a lot right? But one of the things that you do see is there's this um I mean this started all the way back in the industrial revolution. We're still seeing the wheels of this, but this drive towards greater efficiency, greater efficiency, greater efficiency and I'm all for uh technology I'm all for efficiency.

But one of the best podcast I ever did was with Jim Bergman and it was about. He talked about the the history of the gas furnace MH and a lot of it was stuff that he discovered from old books similar to we talked about Dan holl and sort of Dead Man's School Steam and all that stuff. and uh, the idea the concept was I'm going nerdy here for a second, but hang with me this idea of carb carbon luminescent flame. So in old cast iron heat exchangers, they actually wanted to have an orange flame because orange flame puts off a lot more radiant heat than the blue flame does.

um, it's not as much heat and and and as he was talking doing this podcast I was like well, yeah, think about it if you have an aerosling torch and an oxylent torch and you place your hand beside the flame, which one puts off more radiant sideways. Well clearly Aeros Settlin does even though the flame is actually a cooler flame. Super interesting and uh, and this kind of connection with the past. Um, there's something to that that we cannot strip out of the trace.

It's like when we talk about things like VR headsets and all that it's like that stuff is fine if it's a means to an end to some degree, but there's also something about humans invest in humans and sharing about the past and that tradition. and you've talked about like the I don't know, You can't say Brotherhood anymore. It's the everyone Hood right? I mean but that but that feeling of camaraderie that you have in the trade. We cannot allow that to get lost because of money and because of efficiency.

We I don't know if you need to wrap this but my dad used to you talked about the PAC. We used to host the regional meetings at our company and we would leave everything out. We would let them see how we did dispatch and how we did. This is all of our competitors and nobody would do that.

Nowadays everybody's going to hold it close and it would be like it would be like no let's teach let's Elevate everybody and they would see what we charg and it wasn't price fixed. he was just like all of a sudden they weren't giving it away and they and everybody grew. The whole Marketplace grew and it was. it was.

You know it was just an amazing time. That and those friendships were un are still unbelievable. You know we're we're second and third generation ship in the industry. Yeah that I think we got to keep fighting harder for? you know you know it's interesting how how things happen in Cycles Like right now the heat pump rage right? That's the whole thing.

I Remember back to the 80s and early 90s. Uh well, even early 80s heat pumps were all the rage and you know we went. this whole cycle of everybody has to have a heat pump and then we had a lot of problems. weather came RI Well I I've seen a similar cycle you know? I've been in this industry since about 1987 I came from the medical industry and I was lucky to come into this industry uh through Contracting Business magazine so I was not a that's where I know you're from.

Yeah, I used to be Yeah, I used to run that place so drive me crazy. Okay well they brought me in as a lowly associate editor making like $20,000 a year or something like that. and but I what was cool about it is I was getting to meet all of the industry gra all of the I remember Doc Russ that name sounds for Doc Russ made such a difference for me he he did exactly what you were talking about where he opened his books up to everybody. Remember the the tape series on the seminar series for Lennox Plan for the future right? focus on and then similar to what you're doing here it was.

It was done in a virtual tapes you could get but dark ker I'm sorry. yeah no. So so all of these these great people like uh, you know, even Tom Mcart and people like that Great salesmen. Um Tom Tom muts Tom Muts Yeah Oh Doc.

uh, now Doc Russ there was another guy was he Covington Connecticut Kentucky Wasin we're like but it made such a difference for me. This is this is how I learned how to run a service business from Doc Russ's service manager Orville something or yeah, uh, wasn't Orville but something like that I remember him well so yeah I out now used to work with Doc edit some of his articles. he'd write them like in the back of a napkin and crayon and then I'd have to turn it into an article. yeah but but his mind was amazing.

But the point I was trying to make is that there was a spirit I would say in the late 80s early 90s a spirit of sharing y uh the associations were at their Peak I mean Acca well focus on the future. it was us contracting business Acca and lenx this the series together and there was this Spirit of cooperation and sharing. uh that was was really amazing and I learned the industry from from that and then ended up in the field actually running sales and install. but that's another long story.

but uh but what I've seen is almost in the past 20 years or so sort of an ice age of the sharing stopped. Yeah it's like the the day the music died or something right? and and just sing the whole thing every single. it's 11 minutes. it's 11 minutes sorry but but what? I'm seeing now the point.

I'm actually trying to get to a point. You're making it there. So what? I'm seeing now finally after all these years, is this more this Spirit of openness and collaboration I would say Symposium is one of those elements that's that's helping to prod that along. Yeah, I'd like to than some of the things we're doing at NCI our Summit and so forth.

but I and and ourselves as NCI We were fairly close vested because we were trying to build a training company. we had a lot of IP that we didn't want just spread all over the place and we're just lost in the noise. But but even NCI has really opened up and we're sharing a lot more and we're saying we're not. You know, we don't bite.

Uh, you know it's you don't have to worry about, you know where you the point of entry if you will into learning and and I'm seeing manufacturers especially of instruments and software and even some equipment manufacturers and contractors starting to again create a sense of community. That's really what we're talking about as Community Yeah and so it's very heartening to see that we're maybe back in the cycle of getting some Some folks like you know Brian or maybe you know being looked at as the doc Russ of of the 2020? well he is. Yes, he is So really cool stuff so you want to keep it positive I'm really excited and positive about you know the future here. Yeah, it's awesome.

no that's exactly how I feel I saw last year uh last year I was still stressed out because I was still learning how to do this thing and I'm still a little stressed out this year but it's less I'm getting better and better at this. Um but it was so cool to see people some people who hadn't talked for 20 years um who were having conversations come and do this here. Yeah at the Symposium people who I thought would never speak um and I I'm not gonna be specific about who it is but but guys who I really respect and seeing them like actually opening up and now I hear they're having regular conversations and sharing their about their personal lives and all that stuff. that to me again among peers they trust who's in the group with them.

so no no I I I get it. and and and I guess the the point that um I I hear in all of this is um it's good to run solid businesses that make a profit. It's good to do things for our families. and like you said, like there's a scrappiness that comes sometimes from youth.

It's like man I got to make mine. You know, like I can't I got I got to get somewhere and that's not all bad. Like there's a lot of that. that's that's actually very healthy.

but at some point when you're no longer in that moment where you need, uh, where you need it for survival. um, a lot more comes out of abundance. There's a there's a buzz word if you if you want one, but just being like hey, look you know I'm I'm gonna be willing to to be vulnerable even at sometime. and I talked about a little bit about that yesterday about being vulnerable and that means that you're not always covering your Blindside You know you're trying to do good and and sometimes people might take advantage, but that's not your primary motive is to try to protect yourself and I I'm seeing that more and more in the community which is a good thing.

Spectacular. Yeah. I Feel to have my schedule changed at the last minute so I could come. This is my first time being here at this thing and it's just like it.

Like Woodstock meets I Always say nerdstock yeah I always say it's like it's nerd stock. That's what we need to change the name. Well when I first started it I said I wanted to be like the Woodstock of HVAC without the nudity. that's that's what I that's what I said.

but then my brother, then my brother pulled his shirt off during a panel and now that's out. So I guess I guess it's a free-for all now. So uh oh, you mentioned it without the drugs, but you I don't know. hey look I'm not policing it I'm not I'm not smoking anything so uh, not gonna name any names but I did I don't know I don't know what this was all about but I Walked in my office yesterday and it's all open.

Everything's unlocked, you know I I Walked in. some guys have a meeting there I walked to my office yesterday I'm like smells like a skunk in here I don't I don't know I hope it wasn't one of my kids I don't one of those whole pieces of fruit you didn't eat. Yeah, it probably W but yeah, just it was just appeal. That's all.

it was. Yeah, good, good, yeah, it's it's an honor talking to you guys like I said I I wanted to bring some youthful energy uh to the panel. that's why I chose you guys. So I'm not sure what we uncovered and unlocked, but it was really fun to think about it.

Yeah, it's fun to catch up. and like I said, in the spirit of that sort of, um, tradition like I think it's so important that we don't lose the tradition we don't lose because the emotional element of this, the humanity of this that I'm I'm a trades person I I Want to be a trades person I care about that that is easily getting diluted and I think we have to kind of claw that back a little bit. So I'm excited to the extent we get to do it here. and I'm super honored to have you guys and so many others here to to kind of add to that tapestry if you will.

So great than I'm glad I figured out how I know you from. Yeah? I probably interview you? Yeah, probably probably all right. Thanks guys! Thanks Thank.