All right good to see all of you in chat. I definitely encourage you telling me about what you've got going on where you are where you're at what you're doing in chat, I don't mind side conversations, keep it clean. We are a family show, as you can tell by the horrible dad jokes try to keep it, keep it family-friendly for those of you who are weird enough to want to stream this stuff with your kids around. You got to be careful.

If you do that, because you may turn them into this big of a sea nerds as I am so you might want to stay away from that for a good reason. Ken's here, thanks for joining us Ken Steve, my good buddy Steve, is here thanks for all the support Steve, I always appreciate you, Adam John David Mac, Muhammad all kinds of folks, good, to see you all the way from Brunei. That's really cool thanks for joining us man. Already, a hundred and thirty of you here even before we get started all right.

So, let's get started with this thing, just a quick intro into what we're gon na be talking about today, recovering best practices, but we are gon na have a giveaway at the end, and I bet you can't guess what we're gon na give away. It's one of the things shown on the screen right now. You guessed it we're giving away a full tank of contaminated refrigerant, giving it away to the highest bidder. So anybody who wants some r134a mixed with propane you're gon na be the lucky winner at the end.

Yes, I am ridiculous. That is, that is true. That is true. I mean at least I think, you're saying that I'm ridiculous, I'm not sure you may be talking somebody else, but it is true that I am ridiculous, so uh, alright, I'm gon na go ahead and get started.

Let's go and bring the camera on. First thing: you'll notice is I'm wearing my dad to the power of 10 t-shirt, and that means that I have 10 dad powers. One of them is dad jokes, which you all get to benefit from. The other is dad bod, which nobody, but my wife gets to benefit from and then the other eight I haven't written out yet, but you know they're all important, critical, dad powers so yeah thanks for joining us today.

We're gon na set me talking about recovery, best practices, we're gon na, be doing a really great giveaway at the end of an mr 45. This is going to be a call-in show. This is gon na, be a call-in show, so I don't want you to call in until I tell you to call in because that won't work. That's one thing about this is that if people start calling in the calling number at the wrong time, it will interrupt the show, so don't do that.

But when the time comes, this is gon na, be the call-in number. So if you want to write that down, that's gon na be the callin number. If you want to advantage for the cup for the giveaway and then also, if you have anything you wanted to talk to me about that's gon na, be the callin number don't call. Now, though, don't call in the middle of nowhere just wait until we're ready for that today, we're gon na have adjacent objects, gon na be calling in and talking about some of the the changing landscape in the EPA side of things.

There's a lot changing on leaked. You know leak repair, leak, detection, leak rates, recovery, all that on the EPA side of things, so there's gon na be that, but mostly we're just gon na be talking through some best practices, some some stuff that we've all talked about learned throughout the years. This isn't obviously just me: this comes from a lot of really smart people who do this every day. That's the thing about HVAC schools, as we curate some of the some of the smartest folk out there in the industry, I'm gon na go and turn my volume up a little bit cuz.

It looks like I am just a touch quiet, so hopefully you can all hear me alright. So let's get started recovery, best practices and giveaway all right. So, let's, let's start some EPA basics and Jason's gon na call in at 10 minutes after 8:00, and talk a little bit more about this, but the basics from the EPA standpoint and really in in talking with the EPA. If you haven't heard the podcast that I did with the EPA, I think it was a good podcast and you know their interest is in just making sure that you're not venting.

You know enforcing the enforcing the rules. There's a lot of talk out there about the you know the EPA man gon na, get you and all that stuff and that really isn't realistic. That's not that doesn't happen in regular in real life in real life. The EPA is not out there punishing regular technicians for doing their jobs they're out there.

Looking for people who are intentionally venting and so EPA basics number one don't vent refrigerants. There are some exceptions to that and refrigerants that can be vented. But most of us don't work with those refrigerants, so things like propane, isobutane, ammonia and co2 can be vented, but most of the refrigerants we work with whether it's HFCS, HDFC's CFCs, hf OS. None of them can be legally vented, so don't mix refrigerants.

So when people talk about a refrigerant being a drop in refrigerant, that doesn't mean you can top off. That means that there is minimal changes that have to be made to the system to pull out one refrigerant and put in another again. This all relates to recovery, because in recovery is a big moment when a lot of this stuff happens and even mixing refrigerants in the recovery environment. We all know it has to happen sometimes, if you're out on a job, and you fill up one tank and all you have is another tank and it's got a little bit of something else in it.

What are you gon na do? Right? I mean you, you find yourself in those positions, but as much as it depends on us, we don't want to mix now. If you have a choice between mixing or venting, I'm talking about in terms of a tank, then mix, obviously, but we don't really want to make sure furtherance. We certainly don't want to mix them in the system, but even in a recovery tank, we want to stay away from mixing, not just because of you know the environmental factors, but because of the economic factors. So if you mix refrigerant, especially on top of something that's valuable, like r22, you take something that you could actually be getting money back for and now you're gon na be charged to dispose of that refrigerants.

So those are some things to think about. Another thing is: recharging is generally okay, so on the good news side, there's a lot of companies out there here saying: oh it's illegal to recharge our. There are some circumstances where it is against statute to recharge, but those are usually gon na be on larger pieces of equipment and we're going to talk about that equipment under 50 pounds that contains under 50 pounds. There is no recharge limitation as it relates to the United States and you in other countries.

Obviously they have different rules, but in the United States you can recharge equipment. As long as you want, you could have a it could have a leak as big as your pinky and, legally speaking, you would be okay to recharge and because some people will say well, that's venting again, based on the EPA's ruling on this and the conversation that I had with Jeremy darling from the EPA on the podcast, if you're recharging for the purpose of getting the equipment operational, not you know not pulling traitor's and that sort of thing you know kind of gaming. The system you can't put nitrogen on top of an existing charge and use that as an excuse to vent, that's not allowable. There are a lot of kind of tricks that people think they're either you know tricking the system, but you're it comes down to using all that event.

De minimis is fine, hooking hoses on and off all that stuff. It's all fine. All of that just regular process of servicing the equipment is fine, straighter gets stuck and as to charge. That's fine.

It wasn't intentional venting now, when you do the whole oops, you know now that is intentional venting and that's not allowed. I mean let's be practical about this, so another one. That's a common misconception is that a lot of people believe that you have to recover all equipment into a vacuum for most of what we work on in comfort, air conditioning, especially residential recovery, to zero, is most commonly all you have to do them he's just recovery To atmospheric, and the another exception to that in the epa and we're gon na show this slide here shortly, is that if a system is known to be leaking, it doesn't matter its size, you don't have to pull it below atmosphere, because that would be. That would be silly well, you fused something's leaking you pull it below the pull, the pressure below atmospheric pressure, you're gon na pull air and moisture into the system, and that would be a bad thing.

So there's some misconceptions that are commonly put out there by contractors who took the epa exam and maybe got some things confused, but the good news is for most of us who do residential light commercial you're, not working on really big stuff. Then recharging is generally fine and recovery to zero is generally gon na be what's acceptable. Well, show you the charts here in a second and then also at just as best practice this you know the codes vary or the regulations vary, but just keep records of charging in recovery, especially when you're taking a piece of equipment out of service. So if you're, taking a piece of equipment and you're gon na be disposing of it, keep records of the refrigerant that you removed from that equipment.

The data on the equipment, what it was and keep that somewhere, that you can recall it later if the epa ever asks, and so this comes up a lot because people will say well. The epa is not enforcing this. You know there's a very conservative administration in place right now, so the epa isn't doing a lot of these sorts of actions, but just keep in mind that that can all change. So in the future we could have a different administration and a different mindset and they could come knocking on the door and say: hey, show me from four years back your records of systems that you decommissioned and you want to have that data.

Because, again, you don't know how things are gon na change and keeping good records, or what are gon na is what is going to protect you now again, it's very unlikely that they're gon na come after really small contractors, but the larger you get the more you Have these risks so what i always tell people is, if you're not doing it all the right way today, don't get worked up about it just start, taking steps in the right direction. That's what everybody wants you to do and again, even if so, even if you're one of these people who's like hey. This is all this is all hooey. You know, I don't believe in any of this.

Well, it doesn't really matter because, ultimately, if you are, if you have the potential of getting in trouble someday, you need to abide by these things. So that way, you can cover your bases and make sure that you're not gon na you're, not gon na get in trouble. It's not gon na hurt you financially because most most likely, what would happen is you would get a big fine and that's something that we don't want if the time were to come, where the winds, where the winds would change, and so that's where you want to Be careful just keep keep good records, I mean just keep good records if charging a recovery in general. It's a really good idea to keep those good records, not just because of the EPA, but also because it helps you have good records.

If what went on with the equipment so that you can know what's been happening because one of the biggest areas, that's that service businesses lose money, is by adding refrigerant that they don't charge for or recovering refrigerant or making alterations in the system that aren't needed. And if those aren't represented in records - and we know this happens, all the time techs go out - they make a small change. I'll, just add: half a pound i'll just take out a couple pounds and it's not properly retract. Well then you're gon na lose control over.

What's going on in the field, you're, not billing for the things you're doing, and it is a big loser, monetarily and I know firsthand because we had some had some challenges with our own with our own company, with that at times where technicians were just oh I'll, Give them a pound I'll, give them half a pound whatever and they weren't writing it down. That leads to leads to profitability issues, so those are some things to definitely look for from the EPA standpoint. Now, let's look at this chart because this is one of the ones that is most often confused and I'm going to go ahead and hide my face. So that way, you can see the whole screen so on very high pressure and high pressure appliances that contain less than 200 pounds of refrigerant, which is that's going to be most of the comfort air conditioning that we work in right.

It's gon na be rare that you're going to have systems in comfort, air conditioning that are going to have more than 200 pounds of refrigerant. You can see that in all the cases you pull to zero and that's just atmospheric, so that's all you're gon na do when you get into 200 pounds or more refrigerant medium pressure, appliances and low pressure appliances. That's where you do need to pull a recovery into a vacuum and again it's confusing in the EPA some of the EPA guidelines, because they'll say things like that: they'll call, recovery, evacuating refrigerant, so they'll say you have to evacuate refrigerant down to a certain level. Well, they're talking about recovery when we say evacuation, we mean vacuum mostly, and this is also a regional thing.

I've heard different people in different areas, call it different things, but, generally speaking, we're talking about pulling a vacuum, we call that evacuation and we call recovery. The removal of refrigerant from the system and most of what we're working on is gon na be just pulling to atmospheric and again any of these. If they're known to have a leak, you don't need to pull them below because what's the point at that point, right, you're just gon na be pulling air into the system. So it's not valuable to do that.

All right just want to make sure that Jason's not calling and Jason. If you listening, you can call on whenever you're ready, also leak, repair regulations. This is another one that comes up a lot, and this is the note that people get confused because it says here the leak repair regulations apply to industrial process, refrigeration, commercial refrigeration and comfort, cooling appliances containing 50 pounds or more, and that rule remains in place. Here.

We go, we get Jason, calling in. Let's see if this works, hey Jason, hey how we doing good good. It's good good to hear from you. It sounds like this is actually working.

I'm excited, am i the test run yeah, you actually are. So that's I mean. Is that does that show my respect for you, or is that a bad thing? I'm trying to think how this? Oh? It is it okay, good good, because that's what I was intending it to be so yeah thanks for joining us. I was actually just getting into the common misconception about leak repair and you know people saying that you can't recharge typical commercial or like commercial and residential equipment, even if it's less than 50 pounds.

So I was I was covering that. But the reason why I wanted to have you on today was you've you're one of these guys, who knows everything or seems to always be in the know about all these changes that we've got going on in the EPA and so rather than asking you a leading Question, what's going on right now like? Where are we at right now with it with the EPA? There's been quite a few things actually that are going on in this the most recent? Well, the the final rule. I'll start was, at the final rule from 2018, where they rescinded the week repair and testing requirements from HFC, so the leak testing record-keeping, those sorts of things that we just learned from the 2016 rule had been rescinded from HST. However, they still apply to the anything ozone-depleting, so our 22 systems and the like still have to abide by these leak rates and testing and record-keeping right.

The the the biggest thing that just happened was a court ruling based on snap, 20 and 21. I don't know if you remember, but the Mexican and our team of versus the EPA lawsuit that happened in 2017, which overturned snap 20 and basically, what that was. Is they were phasing out HS fees. They were D listing.

I shouldn't use the word phase-out D listing HSCs and these companies sued and got it overturned. So the EPA issued the new rulings. They listen. When I can delist these HS fees and more well about a month ago, the court ruled to listen.

We didn't overturn the whole thing we just overturned. Half of it, you bend the whole thing, which was an illegal procedure. You were only supposed to be in half of it, so now we're in limbo again so technically what this means is, if you have a system that works with an ozone depleting refrigerant, and you want to replace it with an hf c you were allowed to now. It's going to be up in the air any of these alternative refrigerants that we use in systems to replace our 22, the twenty two or twenty seven different replacement refrigerants that have been marketed as a replacement for our 22 in residential or in refrigeration.

Your if their hf v, you know you're fine, but this ruling throws that into debate. The EPA has been addresses, yet the reason it got overturned was part of that rule says even the people that already switched they're gon na have to stop using them until alyssum. That's illegal, they already switched from ozone-depleting to HSV. You can't make them switch again.

They've already switched, so that's what they lost in court, but the rule did state that. Listen. If you want to go from our 22 to say a 407 see now you're no longer going to be able to do that, got it yeah, so the EPA hasn't responded yet, okay, I do you just Hansen about a month ago. Do you have any sense on what you know maybe you've through the grapevine what what they might decide or what those ramifications might be for contractors in the field? I think this is gon na become a moot point.

If you lied to coin the term, there is something called the a Mac that the American industrial and manufacturing act. It's in the Senate right now it passed through the houses in the Senate and what it does is saves down HST like the kigali amendment. So if that were to pass - and it's teetering on the edge of pass and very soon, we would have to start phasing down HS knees like the rest of the world. We would be on par with what everybody else is doing, and that would make all of these rules and rulings and everything know and void.

It would just be here's the new policy, enforce it right right so for right now I guess the the biggest ramification is. Is that yes, when we're talking about r22, I mean because that's a big one, we're talking about our 22, the new rules relating to things like record-keeping and leak rates, and all that those still apply, because r22 is still ozone-depleting. But the new stuff no longer applies to refrigerants, like r410a, that are non ozone depleting correct in that correct, okay, okay, but that doesn't mean because I think what some people have heard or gotten a sense is that well now it's you can vent HFC. You know like now now the rules are off as far as HFCS and that's not true know that it's not the case at all.

Right yeah. I know I've heard it, though have you heard it, but I've been well. I've heard it you yeah yeah, but this this other ruling, what it's really going to affect is these alternative the market for alternative refrigerants for our 22, in what you know, keeping the system operating longer by instead of putting 22 back they're putting an alternative refrigerants. That is non ozone depleting, but if it's classified as an HF see, if this rule is allowed to stand, that's going to make that market go away.

Yeah and that's in the refrigerants market right now is in so much flux right now. What impact? What impact you think that's having to the industry? What's your perspective on that? To be honest, were one of the only countries still using HFCS, so our manufacturers here can't export anything overseas anywhere because they're not using those types of refrigerants they're on HFO s or HS d, hf, o blends or even natural, refrigerants hydrocarbons and other countries are dumping. All of their hf c equipment and refrigerant into the US market relatively cheap, so put you know American manufacturers at a disadvantage again. This is these are based on marketing reports and things like that.

So it's not something I'm just you know pulling out of my backside here. Yeah I mean you've been known to do that. That's that's your reputation at times yeah, but the the thing to take away from that is that eventually, we're gon na have to catch up with what the rest of the world is doing. Yeah and and that's why I am even though you know I loved r22, and all that I'm actually a pretty big advocate of figuring out ways of MIT for making Naturals work refrigerants that we're just not going to have to worry about this moving forward and yeah.

It's a hard conversation, but I think it's a direction that I want us to to start going. But again you know I'm just one person and we all have to just abide by and roll with the rules as they are currently. So what is this doing? Because, obviously, you're involved a lot with obviously ESCO and the RAC manual, and a lot of that has to do with preparation for the EPA exam. So what is that doing to you from that standpoint? Well, is it right now nothing has changed on the exam, except for the leak rate.

They've rephrased we've had to rephrase the questions that deal with leak rates, but it used to say any regulated refrigerant. Now it states ozone-depleting refrigerants. So from that standpoint we're good. However, if and when the aim pad the a mag passes, now that's going to change some things up that we're gon na have to rework this exam.

The good thing is, we can throw out all these other rulings and overturned rulings and then third and fourth and fifth rulings and addendums. All that goes away. That's just one clear-cut law that you got to learn and that makes it so much easier. Yeah yeah! Absolutely! Oh great anything else, you have going on right now that you want to share with the with the group I'm working with HR.

I and I'm part of the age. Are i safe refrigerant transition task force and what we're doing is trying to establish a gun nationwide. Instead of the individual states all having different refrigerant regulations in their building codes and in the code manuals we're trying to get everyone to get out in the same boat, you know this is what we want. This is kind of how we want the transition go.

So if you're a technician in Texas, you're doing the same things and and using the same units as the people in Florida or the people in California right now, California has some of the most strict EPA regulation or a unit refrigerant regulation compared to other states. So all of these rulings don't affect them because they're already five and six steps ahead of everybody else. So what the transition task force is trying to do is get everybody on the same page, so that manufacturers can make one unit that they can sell anywhere. Right now, they're making a California unit and a Chicago unit and a Texas unit and its really kind of making it tough, some manufactures said: listen, I'm not gon na sell units in California.

I'm not gon na sell units in Chicago because I'm not going to have six different models coming off the line with different refrigerants and different requirements. It's making it really tough. So what the transition task force is trying to do is have one level playing field for manufacturers and technician across the country, so everything's kind of like the Electric Code has you know the electricians have their their national code and everybody does know. Does the same thing? We are trying to do the same thing with the refrigerant industry.

Yeah. It's super important, I mean let alone manufacturing is one side of it, but from the technician standpoint you know having so many different refrigerants and then you have to have multiple recovery tanks, and then you know if you have, if you're dealing with some refrigerants being flammable And there's you know, maybe you have a higher flammability, maybe they're in a 2l and you okay. Does your recovery machine handle it and there's just all these things that become really challenging for us? If we don't have a lot of clarity on what the the refrigerants are gon na be - or at least you know - maybe there's not one, but at least it's got to be a small handful. It's been so tough right, you know in the refrigeration industry and if we, if we do that nationally, it's there's so much him so much impact to that, and once the task force is doing is making information available.

You know if there's something that they feel the technician should know or code officials should know, or you know first responders, fire chiefs, those that they have a website. It's on HRI site and there's a little tab that say safe, refrigerant. Ask if you go there all via mean there's a couple of hundred people on the people from the UL, all the different manufacturers from the labor unions instructors chemists, I mean everybody is on this committee and we're all divided in this and every little bit of information. We develop it's put on the website for everybody to use it's not being sold, it's not being hitting it's on the website.

So if you want to know something about an a to our Frederick there's PowerPoint presentations up there there's white papers up there for everybody to go and read unit three, that's great yeah! That's exactly what we need for these sorts of things for sure you don't want to have that sort of information behind a paywall. So that's awesome great and you don't need the login or nothing like that either you don't need to be a member. You don't have to put your email in it's a free site for everybody to use and one HRI site on the HR. I said okay, great final thing I want to mention before I move on and let you go is the ninth edition of refrigeration air conditioning technology is out? Are you working on the 10th? Already I mean your 90s.

We are alright, but Jason is one of the authors and one of the one of the guys who's really working hard to continue to improve that, if you don't have refrigeration, air conditioning technology on your shelf, I'm looking at mine right over here right now. It's a great book and it's constantly being improved. It's a curriculum. It is the curriculum for our industry, honestly, so a great work on it.

As always, and thank you so much for everything that you do for us. I will real quick, tell you that ESCO is working on an e-learning site. We've been building it for about the last six months and it's really been pushed to the forefront with everyone having to be at home and the schooling having to happen at home. So it's being brought on and little bit, but if you go to the ESCO site, there's a lot of stuff, that's free for anyone to watch contractors, technicians, there's a young Eugene who is one of the authors and the REC manual - has done a lot of stuff.

I've done a lot of stuff. Some of the stuff is obviously paid meal per streeted subscription style, but there's a lot of it. A ton of it bills phone's been on dr. Chuck from commercials been on tons of people there and all that stuff is really free.

Great yeah, that's an ESCO is a great organization. I was really bummed that that the conference was canceled this year, because I was excited to go and interact and do all the things we do so so yeah. I go check out the ESCO site. Jason's book on gas.

Furnaces is excellent as well, so go check that out a lot of good stuff in the club, yeah yeah. I know it's a good, I'm looking at it over here on my on my shelf as well. You've got to invest in good training in your organization's I mean, I know so. Few of us have time to do a lot of reading, but but you got to have those resources that you go to when the time is right and when you get the time.

So, thank you for being such a such a good force in the industry, and I mean it. I mean you know how much I appreciate everything you do. I appreciate everything you do, Brian. Alright, thanks Jason, I appreciate you buddy, you got it I'll talk to you later to you, alright, so yeah big thanks to Jason, he's a really great guy, and I wanted to have him on to talk about those those updates which is a little bit of a Segue from what we were talking about, but it struck me that some of these standards now currently don't really apply, at least in the same way, to HFCS, like for 10a, one of the best examples, and now currently that's been rescinded, and so that you still can't Vent but some of these new things, like the record-keeping standard, don't apply to 410 a, but they still apply to our 22.

They still apply to ozone depleting refrigerants, so yeah big thanks to Jason, always always I'm excited for what he's doing so. Another thing is: when we talk about recovery. One of the first things about recovery is how many tanks do you keep. So you got multiple tanks on the truck and this is a question so put it in the chat, how many tanks, how many recovery tanks do you have on the truck? Because if you're working with four refrigerants, as we often have you, have our twenty two and four refrigerants four tanks, you've got our 22 and 410 a.

But if you don't have a backup tank, then what do you do once that tank is nearly full? You know you don't have anywhere to go, and so, ideally we would have four tanks in the truck, but realistically honestly we're lucky if people have to and so making good use of my mics to nism. That's one to test one two that was weird sorry so making the best use of the tanks that you have means that you have to be really diligent about what is in your tank and one of the best ways to do. That is to always use a scale which I mean we should be doing that anyway, but then also have a regular cycle where you're turning them in at your shop or at the supply house, whatever you use and so that you're always keeping a tank. That's you know if not empty doesn't have a lot of refrigerant in it, which is tricky because some supply houses don't want to take tanks that aren't completely full, and so it's this challenge.

But again it's it's. It's a tricky business and this is where people who are technicians - and they understand the trade - know that there's a perfect world of what we would love to have, which is at least four tanks. But then there's the reality of the space and our vehicles. And you know not: everybody can fit that and again, if you get a full-size van, you can probably fit four and you really should have four, but you also need to make sure that all four are properly mounted and you know you can't just throw them in The back of the truck like some people, do ie Burt he's gotten a lot better.

His truck is much better than it used to be something to stop bragging on him, but that's a big question and I don't really have an answer to it. It really just means that you got to set up and you got to have a good process for it. Alright. So let's talk about the question of when you recover, because this is a broad question: do you add the refrigerant back into the system that you pulled out? Because that's one of the reasons why we recover right is that we don't have to charge the customer for the refrigerant say: you're doing something like I don't know, changing your compressor.

That would be a common, reversing valve something that's inside of on a split system inside the condensing unit. Now, obviously, if you have the ability to pump down, then you can pump down some of that refrigerant, but now, with a lot of Scrolls, not allowing for pump down and with a lot of the micro channel, condenser coils, not allowing for pump down now, there's gon Na be more recovery than there ever was same thing as true of ductless systems right working on a ductless system, and you think the charge is wrong. Then your best bet is to pull the refrigerant charge out well now, so that we use that as an example. So you pull that refrigerant charge out of the ductless unit.

You weigh it out now. Are you gon na put that same charge back in the system and that's a question, but here's the things to think about if it's a burnout? So if you have a compressor, that's failed due to grounding or you've had any sort of you know tripping, break or arcing type of situation. Then I never want you putting that refrigerant back in that same system, just gon na go ahead and suggest not doing that or if you have any reason to believe that there are some sort of contaminants or non condensable gases in the system. Now, with non condensable gases, you can transfer it to a tank, let it sit and then charge it is liquid and you're, not gon na put the non-condensibles back in and that's something you can do given.

If you have enough time or what the circumstance is. But that's one factor: another is, is that, if is it possibly mixed? And we run into this more and more because there are more and more people who are putting alternative refrigerants in on top of things like r22 or somebody who goes up and hooks up to a system and thinks it's for 10a, when it's 22 and they start Putting for 10a and then they say, oops right, and so sometimes we run into these cases where things just aren't matching the pressure temperature relationship the way it's supposed to and in those circumstances, what are you left doing right I mean your only option is to you: Can pull it out, putting it put it in a tank or let the system equalize and look at it on a PT chart? But what if it doesn't really perfectly match with anything? Well, now, you're stuck with pulling it out and starting with a virgin' charge, and so these are all cases. Where do you have a burnout go to virgin charge? Is it possibly mixed go to virgin charge? Is your tank contaminated now? This is a really tough one. I had a really heart to heart: a real heart-to-heart conversation with a reclaimer recycler or a company that brings back refrigerant and then pays you for it.

Basically, a really good guy - and I asked him - I said you know - are these tanks? Do they have sludge in them and he said yeah I mean when they take tanks back they're, not cleaning every tank. Every time now he said you know we his company. He provides service grade tanks for cases where the customer really needs an absolutely clean tank, but that is a whole another process which adds a lot of expense. He said some OEMs asked for that, but in general those tanks are they've, got whatever sludge in the bottom of them from whatever practices the last guy had, and so do you really want to take refrigerant, put it in a tank that potentially has sludge in the Bottom recharge the system via a liquid - and you know that - has that dip tube within a recovery tank right that dip tube.

That draws from the bottom, where that refrigerant liquid refrigerant is acting as a solvent and kind of clearing all that stuff out and then potentially throwing that into the system that you're working on. I don't have the answer for you on that one, but it's why we're getting more and more away from recharging with the refrigerant that we pull out and it's unfortunate because you know it's additional cost, but the risk potentially contaminating a system means that I'm just more And more prone because again, and somebody in chat saying, is if it's a burnout: no, but even if it's not a burnout, are you protecting from what potentially was in that tank from the last guy? Because I'm not in time at your company, you could have a nice new painted tank. That doesn't mean it's a brand new tank. It just means they repainted it when it went to the recycling plant or whatever there could still be sludge in the bottom of that tank and when you charge liquid out of the bottom, you know what are you doing so so that's something to think about.

At least my suggestion would be, as a minimum would be to begin charging through a filter dryer. Now that filter dryer is not going to dry it out. You still have to pull a vacuum on your tanks. That's a practice! You have to follow anyway, pull them down sub 500.

So you got to do that. But then also when you charge out of a recovery tank, I would church through a filter dryer and at least that's gon na catch. You know the the solid stuff is he gon na catch, all the acids or anything else? That potentially is in that sludge? No, but it will catch those solids. One question and the chat is: can pulling a vacuum on that tank help vacuums only remove vapors, so even water vapor.

So even if you have liquid water, for example, a vacuum pump has to first boil that water before it can pull it out, the vacuum pump. Does nothing for solid contaminant vacuum? Does nothing for solid contaminant nothin for sludge? Does nothing for acid does nothing for any of that stuff, so just things for you to think about, but I would suggest if you're gon na chart recharge your system out of a recovery tank that you charge through a filter dryer also charging liquid is a greater Risk for sludge! So if you have a refrigerant, that's a single opponent, like r22, you can charge via vapor and that's gon na be more likely that you're not gon na get sludge back in the system, but charging vapor is more of a risk for non-condensibles. Now I write nitrogen and air because when I say non-condensibles a lot of people don't know what non-condensibles are they think solids or liquids are non-condensibles and they aren't non-condensable specifically talking about gases that don't condense and in an air conditioning system, that's nitrogen and air. That's really the the main things so that you have to think about alright.

So now let's talk about tank capacity, so we have to talk about WC and TW, which they're very simple, but you got to know what they are. Most of you probably already know some of this you're, probably like jeez Brian you're, insulting our intelligence. But we have to review these things because a lot of people don't know, and if you don't know you don't know right. One of the things that drives me of craziest about our trade is people are afraid to ask, because when they ask people say well, you should have already known that it doesn't matter what people should already know.

They only know what they know and so TW tare weight is the empty weight. So just the tank empty water capacity WC is water capacity. That's how much water the tank can hold. Just that simple tare weight is empty weight.

Water capacity is how much water it can hold now we know we only want to fill tanks to 80 % max. Everybody knows that so a lot of people will say, take 80 % of water capacity and that's what you fill it with. But it's not that simple and we'll talk about this in a second. It's not that complicated either you don't have to get so Mathia about it all the time or make it overly complicated.

But you do need to know how much refrigerant you can put in that tank. But it's easy. If you pull this tank off your truck - and you see this one here is twenty eight point, three pounds and if it weighs out at 32 point three pounds: it's got three pounds of refrigerant in it. Now.

What I've noticed is is a lot of times the tare weights aren't exactly right. You know they might be off just a you know a couple points here: there are a few ounces and that's not a big deal, but that is part of the problem of when you're talking about critically charged systems. You have to have weighed that exact tank before and then weigh it while you're charging or while you're recovering, and that's why people who aren't using scales all the time. It's it's a real problem in our trade people failing to use scales, because this is why a lot of systems end up getting vastly overcharged or why people end up over filling tanks, because they're just not weighing the tank.

The policy I would strongly suggest you implement is that you pull the scale off the truck every time you pull a tank off the truck. I guess if it's nitrogen, then that doesn't count, but every time you pull or recover your charging tank a refrigerant tank off the truck also pull a scale off the truck all right. So the standards for recovery tanks fall in two buckets. A HRI has a guideline HRI guideline K: 2015, that talks about the testing of the cylinders and fill value, and all that and then also the d-o-t, is really one of the big arms that regulate the transport of refrigerants in general, because again, anytime you're transporting gases.

It's do t that that matters with that. So these are the two sets of regs. You want to look at a lot. I'm focusing here on the HRI guidelines.

Cylinders need to be tested every five years. Often that doesn't happen, but if you're following a good practice, where you're sending it into a reclaim facility, then they're going to take them out of service and have them retested before they send them back out. Which is why we do that again, regardless of how you're doing it is, if you're, using, if you're doing recovery like you, should you should be cycling through tanks like crazy in your supply house, or your reclaim facility that you're, using whoever you're dealing with for refrigerant They're gon na handle that part of the that part of the equation of testing the cylinders don't feel past eighty percent, but recognize that that is a moving target depending on temperature, and so this is where it gets a little funny. Okay, so h, RI k 2015 talks about 80 % at 77 degrees Fahrenheit.

I'm gon na show that here in a second, but also most of these, when you start to look at the at the safety data sheets about a hundred and thirty degrees, is what they reference and that is the temperature say: you're a service technician in the desert Of Arizona you know, what's the hottest, the back your trucks gon na get probably in that range right, and so I like us to think in terms of making sure we don't overfill at that maximum temperature just to be on the safe side. Now a lot of people have said: look, you know HR ice already thought about this. They said 77 degrees so make it 77 degrees. Again, it's going to be rare that we need to get a tank that full anyway.

So I would rather you leave it a little less fool than it needs to be just a little. I'm not saying you know, send it back with a couple pounds in it, but just a little less fold just so that way you don't accidentally overfill it, but regardless the way that you do it in order to in order to compensate for this water capacity. Because remember this WC is water. We have to calculate it for refrigerant, so we take grow cylinder, weight, 0.8.

So that's 80 percent times the water capacity times specific gravity. Sorry, I wanted to say sensible gravity. My brain wasn't working the specific gravity of the refrigerant, which is really just a multiplier which we're gon na look at a much simpler way. Doing this, I'm just telling you the a HRI way and then plus the tare weight, so the tare weights, the empty weight.

So when you're looking at a scale, keep in mind the tank weighs something that's the tare weight. So that's the way you calculate how much fill again. Don't worry about that. I'm going to show you a simpler way.

A HRA guideline says that it's based on again. I'm just showing you the same thing here, but it's saying specific gravity of the refrigerant recovered at 77 degrees Fahrenheit, also keep in mind that a lot of times when we're recovering in the process of recovering we're getting the tank hot. Now. This is just another thing when you think about this hundred thirty degrees.

We don't want that tank to get above whatever the safety data siege says, which is usually around that harder, 30 degrees. So just use 130 in your head. You don't want that tank to get higher than 130 degrees anyway, just as standard practice. So if you were in a case where I don't know why you'd be storing refrigerant in a room, that's more than 130 degrees and the exception of the back of a hot van.

But if you were don't do it you're not supposed to do it basically you're not supposed to store refrigerant and over 130 degrees or get the tank over 130 degrees all right. So this chart courtesy of Eric Kaiser. I put his name up right up there because he's the one who made this he gives a bunch of multipliers. He shared this in the HVAC school group.

He did it based on a hundred and thirty degree temperature refrigerant density, which makes it a little bit more on the safe side. It's not a huge difference in weight, but it makes it a little on the safer side. So you take the tank water capacity and you multiply it times the film multiplier and then times point zero. Eight plus chair weight equals maximum total tank weight so that this is again the chart that Eric made, but it makes it simple.

Our 22 is so close to water that you can almost just use water. So in our 22 you can pretty much just take that point. Take the water capacity, multiply it times 0.8 and that's your fill, so it makes it pretty easy. But when you go to things like for 10a well now your multiplier is lower.

So now you see we got a multiplier of 0.9 1, which means you can't fill it as much. So that is a factor now, when you're filling these tanks again step. One is start using a scale if you're not using a scale start using a scale step. Two is get more involved, so you make sure that you're not over filling these tanks again for service technicians, you're generally not gon na get overfill it filled anyway, but but you just wouldn't want to and from a practical standpoint the way you're gon na keep track Of this is by just constantly weighing your tanks, you know, what's in it, keep a little tag on it, so you can write, you know the job numbers or addresses of jobs.

You've used it with that particular tank and how much you pulled out every time. So you can keep really good, really good track of that those are just best practices. No, those are best practices. I think what some people hear me talk about this stuff.

They think it's pie-in-the-sky stuff. This is what we do at my company and I didn't always do this. I wasn't always you know, I didn't always do everything the way I was supposed to, and even now I'm sure I don't, but we try to implement it as much as we can. Whatever we find out about things - and these are some really good practices, so here's some important safety, ensconce iterations - use a scale at all times, while charging and recovering don't overfill, which means go over 80 %.

Liquid fill don't overheat based on the SDS, and so, if you look at Eric's chart here, not oh, he doesn't just go 130. He actually looked up the SDS storage temp for all these refrigerants and you can see some of them are actually lower than 130 degrees, which means that you wouldn't want them. In the back of a super hot van in the middle of the desert, you could run into potential safety issues there. So just don't overfill over 80 you'll be in good shape, don't overheat store tanks properly, meaning having them properly chained in place strapped in place.

That sort of thing and then don't then don't mix if you don't vent and you don't mix refrigerants the EPA is gon na, be pretty good with you most of the time unless you're working a really big stuff and then that's where leak rate requirements come in And all of that, but recharging your fine for most of what we do and pulling vacuums to zero or not pulling vacuums. Sorry, recovering to zero atmospheric is generally allowable now from a good practices standpoint when you pull to zero, I want to see you valve off and wait and see if those pressures rise just to see if you still have some liquid in the system, just a good Practice because you don't want to leave liquid in the system, so if you're, imagining you're pulling the system down with a recovery machine just valve it off make sure that it's not jumping back up which shows that there's liquid in the system, all right so now. This is recovery, quality, best practices, so first we had safety and compliance. Now quality pull a deep vacuum on the tank.

First, that's gon na make the process easier and it's gon na make sure you don't contaminate the refrigerant use a quarter-inch flare dryer for recovery and recharge from the tank. Now you can use bigger than quarter-inch, but I would suggest getting the largest quarter-inch flare dryer. You can get from your local refrigeration supply house and using that for recovery and recharge. It's just it's just handy.

If you want to put a sight glass on it as well, so you can take a you know, take a look at the refrigerant and know when you're you know pulling liquid or vapor. That's also very helpful. So you can, you know, hook those up in tandem. Make a couple little fittings for yourself: have your dryer have your sight glass? I like it when people take those little extra steps, so that way they can.

You know kind of control. The environment I wish manufactures would start to include more of this. Some of them include dryers, but often they're, very small. I want to see larger filter dryers and I want to see sight glasses.

That would be a nice thing to have now on sight glasses. Sometimes they can be restrictive. We don't want to add additional restriction, so maybe a hit or miss use them. If you want to, I like the idea, at least but frankly have I always done it.

No, I haven't, but it's a good idea, pull slightly below atmosphere and allow to equalize to ensure no more liquid is present. Like we mentioned, that's a best practice exchange smaller tanks with refrigerant reclaimers for better prices on valuable refrigerants. So this is a just a best practice, which is that if you're dealing with expensive refrigerants like r22, I don't suggest that you have a giant tank at the shop that you dump all of the tanks into and the reason. Why is because there's a much higher risk nowadays of cross contamination, because there are so many companies putting other refrigerants on top of the refrigerant? That's already in there like putting 407 C and on top of our 22, that would be one of the most common ones, and so you don't want to contaminate a whole bunch of our 22 by putting a little bit of 407 C mix on top of it.

With one system that happened to be cross contaminated or one guy who mix in 410, a with the 22 in his tank and then put it in there so using and exchanging smaller tanks is a good is a good bet. Somebody said that they lost me and let's make sure that I'm still showing up here, just give me one second to make sure I'm showing that I'm still here. I think you might be saying that you lost me on screen. I took myself off screen just because just so you can see behind me, so I do that in the stream.

Another best practice is to put tags with recovery, mounts and tech name on the tanks. That's the old, put your name on it thing. When you put text name's on the tag, they're gon na be much more likely to be honest with what's on the tag and then when they turn in the tank, it's got to have the tag on it just as part of kind of your warehouse policy, and It just helps you keep track of refrigerant recovery yeah. I just take myself in and out of the screen just so I'm not always blocking.

What's on it with my big fat head all right. So here are some speed tips. Now I'm gon na go ahead and bring up the the callin hold on one second here. This is my call in number, so anybody who wants to call in if you've had any questions or anything that you want to mention about your best practices.

This is the number you can call in at now. If you call in I'll bring you in on the conversation, it's only one person at a time with this. So if you have something you want to talk about, you can go ahead and call in, but I'm just gon na keep going until anybody does for speed tips, use a quality recovery machine. I have a couple brands.

I like this, isn't really a brand based thing, but you know I really like nav ACK recovery machines and I really like to feel peace mo r45 recovery machine. I've used a peon for years. Those are really the three that I've used a lot and I have a lot of confidence in currently. My go-to on my truck is either the M R 45 or the NR DD from that back to that, I use we get a collar hey.

This is Brian who's who's. On the line with me, Michael, hey, Michael how's things, oh good good. So what do you got going on? Oh just uh, watching in on your webinar here awesome. So what type of work do you do? Oh service, tech, okay, and so what let's start here? What is your recovery rig? That's always a fun question.

What do you recover with the exact same feel piece that you're giving away today great, so you probably wouldn't mind winning another one. I wouldn't imagine now for personal use, but yeah cool. So how do you like it? It's fast, it's surprisingly fast the forget the brand of the previous one. It was the blue and gray one, but that one took usually twice as long yeah.

It's it is.