Not allowed to say that any here with Joe Sheerer Eric Melly uh we've done this last year. Did we skip? Yes. did we do it last year? I Don't remember not last year. but but this is like this is one of the weirdest things that we do at the Symposium but I'll enjoy doing it which is just we just have a conversation about whatever technical topics, life talk topics.

it's just it's just an ask me anything. So good to have you guys again and our audience as well. So we do have a we actually have a group here. for once it took a lot of work to even get you know a handful of people back in this weird room.

So um, but know there's actually been a lot of good conversations going on here. Yeah, what was that? I was about to say what did you have to do to course them back here? um there was, uh, there was Promises of free tools and Candy oh um. ice cream extra raffle tickets? Yeah yeah for sure. Was that you in the white van earlier? white? my my kids call it a kidnapper van? yeah yeah.

offering for candy candy kids. All right. So the first question s: what was your name Terry Terry McWilliams asked I just gave your whole name on the Internet Geez, All right so hopefully you're not like in the witness protection program or something. So uh, and everybody who's on the live stream as well feel free to just add in questions or anything you think we should talk about here.

His first question was it wasn't about getting new technicians, it was about how do you get them? How do you introduce them to some of this more advanced stuff like the building performance and all that. So do you you work in residential then I'm imagining yeah, resal like commercial residential Okay cool. So I guess like how did you get did you first get interested in more like advanced stuff I know you're not. you're not really like a building sciencey guy.

but but but you're still. but you're still like you pinch off discharge lines on compressors to test them and stuff like that. that's that's a real throwback. That's a throwback joke that nobody get.

yeah, uh, you know you can pin pinch off the suction line if you'd rather that. Okay too. but you know we don't need to get down. get down there again.

But yeah, I you know I think it's very personality driven like I'm definitely some someone who kind of questions things and I want to know the why which probably really aggravated my parents you know, like taking things apart and um, just trying to almost be like a mad scientist with thing. It's just kind of my personal um, you know attributes. so I do think it's somewhat going to be uh, varying from person to person whether your you know young Tech really is like passionate about learning and absorbing as much as a sponge or someone that's just like you know. I'm here to, you know, do this job and as far you know and you can't you're probably not going to make everybody be someone who's super hungry and it's not that they're invaluable at that point.

if they are just here to do a job because it took me you know I didn't just you know show up day one and was like oh I love this. It was like honestly I was like air conditioning is terrible I mean you're up in a Haun attic covered in insulation. It takes a while and then once you finally start to kind of know the basics. um then maybe you could actually develop that passion I don't I think it's be really hard to develop that passion right off the yeah, do you think? well um I think people different people are motivated by different things So my answer is like you have to know something about individual and what they're motivated by.

um which is where I suggest most people start uh when they're hiring, but even with even with your current team like if you don't know about like, what really interests and uh, and inspires um, the people who work with you, then you're gonna have a hard time getting them interested in something you know and that's actually so even fundamentally in the language we use and I and I do the same thing I Think we all do it where we're like how do I get so and so to do XYZ right? You don't really get people to do things. people are people you know and they're and they're They're on par with you in every way. So either they're aligned or they're not and so you have to actually adjust your alignment with them. um, or you can uh, often support them with something that kind of accelerates what they're already who they already are.

Um, so exposure is big I Think a lot of people. The thing I've come to realize is people really tend to like things that they're good at or that they feel like they could be good at. and they tend to not like things that they don't feel like they can be good at. Um, you know.

so why you don't ask me to play like board games or like chess Because I stink at it and it's just if I was good at it I'd probably love it. You know Berke keeps uh, challenging you a chess player. No, he has a chess board out here. he's playing chess with people I know it's weird.

apparently he's good. I guess he puts a lot of time into it. probably when he should be working some of that time, but that's okay. we'll uh agress but um yeah.

so I guess my my encouragement would be like think about what got you here, um and then don't just say hey, well they have to be like me. um it's always a progression and there's always these sort of moments of inspiration. but usually it's surround solving a problem. Most of us are are problem solvers.

uh we like Puzzles um puzzles to solve and and when you find a puzzle that you can't solve and then you're like Aha and then you fall down this Rabbit Hole Um for me it was. uh back in the early 2000s we had a bunch of hurricanes. We had all these mold issues that I just was just flailing trying to figure out and then once I learned about a lot of these Technologies and I learned a lot more about the envelope and and building performance and all that. that really kind of changed my um changed my perspective.

What about you? Eric Well I don't have any employees and I don't feel I have much to add to. uh yes you do you because you because yourself like what? what got you kind of falling down the rabbit hole of different um like really actually understanding things. The interest my my Um Native interest in just how things work and figuring out things like you guys were mentioning of like you know you start to see some of the puzzle pieces and you're like well how does this actually work It's like you know when you first start as a helper, you're just fetching tools and doing the the really simple tasks. and then you see the more complicated tasks.

Like you know, how does the refrigeration cycle work, how does wiring schematics work and the controls and everything and start to like. Take it upon yourself to be interested in learning that because I If you're not interested in learning that at that point in time, it's at least for me, it's really hard to try to actually force that knowledge in and retain it. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good yeah. that's a good perspective.

Um, all right, we got some. We got some technical questions coming in online. Did you? did you have anything else you wanted to say there? You look like you had something else there. We can go to the technical stuff.

Yeah, let's go to some technical stuff. We're kind of. We're kind of. This is kind of a technical group here.

All right. So from John Whitey says does a variable inverter system indoor and outdoor fans mitigate any issues uh, with excessive Supply ducts and then needing to close partially or fully some of them. Um, so I think I think what he's saying is because then he also is asking about Iris dampers worth the cost versus plain mechanical dampers at Branch trunk interface And then he said Iris not Irish LOL Irish dampers I think would be something else all together. So is he trying? Let me.

So if I think I think he's saying I think he's saying like um um yeah, are you saying let me ask this, are you saying that will variable speed indoor fan Because we'll just say that you're talking about duck works So he's clearly asking a question about about an actual you know, like that type of a What? I guess an I guess that is what you call that an iris I Guess that's okay. Let's say what are you thinking? What are you thinking I think he's trying to use the equipment to mitigate an air flow problem which it's not GNA Work You cannot use a system to mitigate a duct work issue. You need to address each piece of the equipment in individually and let it come together as the building envelope. You can't use one to fix the other.

It's it's not going to be a successful yeah. but because he's asking about Iris dampers that's a little more advanced. So so I I think maybe what he's saying is um, is there can you work together with um, that type of damper in order to mitigate issues I don't know. Uh, you can just change the subject too if you want.

That's the other thing we do like politicians and just answer a question he's not asking. He's talking about a fully variable system though. so the duct work can't change when got that could make it worse. okay and and in low stage it could be Along with that does seem to be what he's saying and actually this is something I have thought about I have thought about is this idea of um, actually modulating uh, your your duct work at the same time as your um as your equipment in order to maintain face velocity? But the problem with what he's saying is is that has to be at the actual diffuser.

um at the actual whatever you vent diffuser Grill whatever you want to call it. but no like at the actual output because that's the only place that velocity matters for the sake of throw, you can do it earlier in the doct. If the if the outlet stays the same size, it doesn't matter what you do down line, you're still gonna have low velocity. Oh so that was more of a um, that's the question we're going to answer de question.

Let's talk about this. Let's talk about this anyway though, because even if that's not what he's asking I think it's an interesting question. So if you reduce air flow and you keep your vents the same size, then you're not going to get good throw and as good of mixing. It's true.

Yeah, and you're you know. So it does kind of heal itself in the way that if you start to well it can or can't heal itself just depending kind like where your thermostat's located in that scenario because if the system is let's say you had a far run master bedroom that was was always warm before. Now you sell them a variable speed system so in low stage is now getting even less and the thermostats across the house then yeah, you could. You could have a real issue there.

I Don't think any sort of face velocity damper would fix a problem like that. Well, and and I guess there's two different things. There's two different things that they're uh, talking about here. So one is I think I Think what one challenges is, especially in larger duct systems.

Um, as you reduce pressure I think he's saying you're not, you're not feeding equally. That's one question. but then there's But then there's the face velocity question which is a whole different thing and that's something I Don't think a lot of people think about which is that whole a lot of people are very concerned about. Oh well, I don't want my ducks to be oversized and that's what Ed talks about and Alex and all those guys, you can't oversize.

Ducks You can have an oversized Um outlet and oversized vent, right? because then that results in poor face velocity. which then you don't get that, uh, entrainment and you don't get that mixing. Um so I think there's two different possible questions here. The first one: I Think you don't solve a problem um, with distribution because you're relying kind of on a pressurized system in the first place.

If you're having that issue where it's all dumping at the closest vents like that's kind of a that seems like a whole different problem to me like a duck design problem. Yeah, but maybe. but maybe that's what he's saying is, maybe you're compensating for a duck design problem there. Yeah, I'm rambling a lot.

So what are you hearing here? No. I mean I I I Agree I Think person, you do have to be. You know, careful about what kind of duct systems you would put a full variable speed system on because there are definitely issues if you don't Zone it on a big house. Um, you know you.

Like you said, you would almost want to design it for some. in my opinion. Personally, you'd almost want to design it for somewhere like the Intermediate Air flows don't size it for the full stage capacity. make it be maybe a little bit.

you know, higher in the static ranges at that point because it's going to live there for very little of its life. You know, fully variable speed system. You could probably look at some data and see it's in high stage very little. I Feel self-conscious because Sophie's sitting here and she actually designs duck systems.

so I'm not I'm not bringing you in on it I'm just saying I get because because this is like like Reagan talks a lot about this and the on the zoning side NCI talks about it a lot too and that's not my expertise. but I I guess where I would kind of end this question because we're going to talk in circles. Um, where I would end? This question is, don't get confused about um, face velocity and mixing in a room. Don't confuse that with challenges that you face because you have a really poorly designed duck system.

Um, where you're relying on pressurization. Uh, in order to get air places right? That's not really a great system anyway. if you're relying on that, I guess. And so fundamentally, if you can solve that problem, solve that problem.

Uh, and Zoning can help in some cases, but don't. But using it as a Band-Aid I guess it. The question always is are you designing a new system or are you trying to fix an existing problem that a client has and I think that's one of the questions he's asking. Is that Iris design better than a typical butterfly damper? Well, the answer is yes.

I mean butterfly dampers are kind of junk. Um, but they are what we have and they're inexpensive, so that becomes a cost benefit sort of thing. So and I would say even with the best designed duct systems, you would still want butterfly dampers. Well, and that there you go.

That's the thing. Um, in retrofit applications where you're going in fixing a problem, a lot of people are like, well, you're using manual D like no if I'm fixing a problem, I put in a big duct and I put in a balancing damper. That's all I do right and then put in dampers everywhere else so you're not. All you're trying to do is not increase your system static so that it affects the equipment um, and then ultimately get more air to that zone.

That's like a realistic approach in the real world. There's a realistic thing to using fan horsepower to solve problems. Oh right, commercially, you do it all the time. So why can't when you do it in residential well? Because it's it, just ain't right Joe it just ain't right.

They just made this 15 Sierra 14.5 Well I mean it's yes, it is that. um, but also no, nothing in the system is engineered for it I mean like so a lot of times you run into like your coils aren't aren't designed for it and so you get like if you're if you're trying to even the cabinet. so you get air sucking in from all the different areas and you get water blowoff issues I Mean you know when you have high static pressure on these systems, the motors aren't design turn static pressure on a traditional air handler Supply static wouldn't cause any of those things. You're right.

Yeah, but either way is were we only talking about Supply That's where my head was okay thinking with because that is what he was asking. Yeah, Yeah, okay, that's a good. That's a good I You know, And that's like in a retrofit application. You know You might look at a fan chart for some units you're going to use and think oh man, this Fan's this, you know, 13 Motors got a really weak program in it so you know you got to chip it.

Then it's just like a diesel truck. Yeah, you just tune that that bad you put like 400 volts to it. Okay, here's a here. here's a question.

Here's a question for you: Have you ever replaced an Oem PSC motor with an ECM aftermarket ECM in order to try to solve the problem? Uh yes. I'm I could do this I could solve the problem with another P I'm just asking if you have done it like have you actually done it? Yeah, um well. I wouldn't say I have set taken out a perfectly working um motor put in a stronger one to solve things. but let's say I had some history with the system and the motor was, um, failing and it's like, well, this system always struggled a little bit on the airf flow so maybe we'll go right.

A little uh, little more horsepower on the which you know again, may have zero impact because if the motor is kind of unloaded. Anyway, the old motor was spinning at its top speed. right? synchronous speed for a PSC motor, right? Um, just putting a bigger one in really isn't gonna talk about that because I think a lot of people don't understand that. Talk about that like what you just said there.

Yeah, so you know a fan motor. Let's say it's a third horsepower and the door name plate rating says uh, 2.9 full load amps and you measure and man, this thing is only doing like 1.3 and you can almost usually use your ears to tell that that just Air Handlers have a different sound when those Motors are kind of hitting their synchronous speed, which a regular PSC motor running at 240 volts is only gonna spin so fast. It's based on the poles. Yes, right? So the synchronous speed of a typical Six Po motor is 12200 RPM Yeah, Yeah, a lot of people say 10 75 but some will say, but that's what slip factored in.

Yeah, exactly. So that's why you might see. You know some people may wonder that too is Um, I've got an 1125 RPM Motor right? Can I repl. How am I gonna find that? It's like there's nothing different.

They've just yeah. Kind of decided that, right? That's what the name the engineers are like. Our motor is just a little more slippy. Yeah, just a little more slippy.

Um, so the point. Okay, so the point is, is that that motor is unloaded. It's spinning at its synchronous speed. It's spinning that blower wheel just as fast as humanly possible on the voltage you have at the house.

Well, yeah, but here's but here's where what you're saying is an incomplete story because I have done this before. Okay, years ago before I even started. Kalos Um, at 1070. So so so at six Poole motor at 1200 RPM fully unloaded.

So what you're saying is because the static pressure is high. This is what a lot of people miss. and this is what I wanted to I' We've said it like a billion times. but an old Psse permanent split capacitor motor.

Um, when you have high static pressure, it's going to spin fast faster. And that's what blows everyone's mind because like, what do you mean it's under more load? Well, no, it actually isn't. Load is the amount of pounds of air you're moving, right? So if you're moving less pounds of air because you have higher static pressure, then and again, that air is also less dense. Because of that.

Um, you're going to well, on the return side. At least. Yeah, yeah. Return side? Yeah.

Um, Um, you're going to run your your synchronous speed. you're going to run up. But with a with an ECM an ECM isn't isn't bound to that six pole number. An ECM can 1400 on ECM Well, I actually I don't know the answer to this.

It's bound by a number, but it's not bound by 1200 RPM And and so it will spin faster than the maximum synchronous speed of a PSC motor. And that's what that's the fundamental thing that an ECM can do to overcome airf flow problems to your point, it's not like that's not the solution, right? But sometimes you're stuck in a situation where it's like this is like I I can't replace all the duck work. Maybe it's in between floors or something and so you're trying to get some more air out of it, you put an ECM in. It's going to actually ramp up uh to a degree that you wouldn't have had.

and that's why an ECM draws more current at high static pressure. and and the current is like to the seventh power. Yeah, no right start to it is it is a right. It's like an exponential yeah, yeah, Increase like.

and if any, just do a little test next time. you guys have a true variable speed motor where you can set the dip switches, just start pushing it like a 100 more. 100 more and you'll see like wow. 100 more took like two amps more, it went from two to four, doubled my amperage and so um you can see how much it uh increases and something else to to the subject about making that blower went spin even faster than synchronous speed is that's when you start to see blower Wheels come apart right? Well right and that's where.

like I Remember when it first came out in train we did a lot of train at Del air when I was there. um they you were having blower Wheels Flying apart all the time because they didn't they didn't have programmed limits set into them so they would just these things would just like ramp to the Moon. You probably had a lot of that too, right? Well, nobody can hear you right now because your uh, because your microphone's getting there you go. Everybody wanted to set it to the highest airf flow.

That's what some people would say. just like put them all up all the way. more air flow is better, right? Yeah, five ton air handler, three ton unit max air flow. yeah or they're just fact C Yeah and I and I did that a lot early on before.

I understood the impact on humidity like you know I just thought, well it's variable speed. That means it's good on humidity Jack the air flow up right I didn't Obviously that's super dumb, but uh I did that several times I wish I knew where those houses were so I could go back and reset their reset their dip switches. Why? why do I keep replacing blower Wheels This is so weird. All right.

Um, what is your take on? um, A2l I don't know I mean yeah, yeah it is. I Ask you this because you always have a very pragmatic like you don't You don't buy the marketing like you're meaning like you're going You're gonna have your own take on it. Yeah, I you know. So my own take personally is more complexity with these leak sensors.

they're talking about. um, more cost of equipment? Um Am I Personally scared of the flammability? Not when I've heard so many uh, webinar great webinars by Brian and his guest that like you can't get the flame to carry hardly at all now I would take it more seriously. Um about having compressor terminals vent because as it is now, we have zero flammability refrigerants. and when it's like aerated with the mixture of oil and heat, you can have pretty vient terminal blowouts.

so I would expect those to be. Maybe you know, maybe take those a little more more seriously with the A2 LS Yeah, um, the Glide seems to be as of yet not a huge issue. Correct, that's that's good. That makes my heart Happy you know? um R32 kind of makes my heart Happy just because I Love R22 and it's really close in number.

Yeah yeah, it just makes you feel a single. Yeah, it's a single component refrigerant so that's um, that's nice, but you know we're going to have to and I went through the uh I went through the R20 2 to 410A transition which was um probably a lot harder for people right? because we had never really had such an industry like we had never had a like a hard date where like things are going to stop and change right? and I mean they were telling us we have to have separate gauges. We have to run a line set on every single job. If the two oils meet, it's going to create this like nasty stuff.

that's GNA um destroy the equipment within days. We thought you know well and and and I think honestly the reason why we thought that is because of moisture. like so we were seeing that happening but it was actually because there was moisture in the system that they were then exposing. moisture doesn't even really seem to bother 410.

I mean not in any. The Poe that was the transition doesn't. Oh come on Joe that absolutely does. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to.

maybe we're gonna have I'll give you no, we're not gonna have a disagreement. we're gonna have a fight because like when we first started when literally when 410A came out I was the training manager at Delir at that time like so I was doing the training and we started putting fora systems in and we were terminal venting black sludge within a matter of days. Now when you say moisture like I think I think we there was times when they were pushing line sets through chases, uncapped so it's a different level of water content probably yeah but but but we did not have that issue like we went from no you R22 is fine with that. you can't it is.

he was happy R22 is like man I've been doing this for 30 years. No literally if go up and ask an R2 an R22 tank he's like I've been doing this for 30 years and I never had a problem I can take a little water in my life Yeah, you go over to for10 and he's like, well, you know actually it's got to be 72 degrees. Water is right right? Yeah? R4 yeah yeah r410 is like I only drink perryer I don't I can't take CH I'm not okay with this water right? Um, where's the first aid kid I don't know I need I'm going to need to speak to the safety manager. That's that's how 410A sounds.

That's how 410 that's how they made 410A sound I'm not making fun of anybody. Okay s right, right? Oh yeah, right, you talk about yeah? yeah yeah no. and I was one of those guys I was I was definitely one of those guys. All right I'm I'm gonna yeah I'm gonna turn over to Eric Eric Any thoughts on A2 LS It's just another thing we're gonna have to deal with.

Unfortunately, we don't get to pick the fluid that goes in the system so I mean I really got no opinion I'd Wish they would go to something with a lower pressure. What does your daughter think about it? What do you think about A2l? No, no, she says no, that's the final word. You got my vote. Final word? No, Absolutely not.

Um, sorry Koras, You're gonna have to rework everything. Um, my bad. I Think lower pressure would be nice because it just seems that the the leak rate has gone up when we when we started using higher pressure gases from what we had before. Yeah, so I don't think we're really gaining anything even environmentally because it's like, okay, it's slightly better for the environment, but we leak way more of it.

So and that's always been my biggest um, can I say beef is that Okay, biggest beef with the industry is like, how about we focus at staying on the system inside the system in the first place And where are the consequences to manufacturers for their Um leak rates that are caused by their manufacturing? Um, that's something that and I'm not blaming them fully I mean that would I think it's everybody has to have a stake in it and that's a little frustrating to me. but I think it's the efficiency standards has made them thinner wall, thinner wall, rifled tubing right? with thin walls. like to chase these efficiency numbers Um, and fitting in the same footprint, it's a recipe for air. And and I personally don't have a huge um, belief that pressure the pressure would really Drive leaks I Feel like you know, 300 pounds versus 500 lbs I Don't know that it's really going to like it.

So I'll disagree with the case of formic corrosion. So formic corrosion is this ant nest corrosion which is the vast majority of what you see when you actually like it, look at it. and so if you imagine there these tiny little cracks and now you apply more pressure to already existing leaks, now you you create a much a much larger leak. So in non-leaking tubing I would agree this tubing should not be the issue, it should not be the weak point.

Um, a side note is is that I really question manufacturing practices because I've actually pulled apart some coils some sometimes and actually found the leaks and it didn't look like formic to me. It looked like uh, like manufacturing issues. And when you see how have you guys ever seen how um, they they put the fins on tubing? oh yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah, they just they shoot, they shoot that pig through and it and it expands it right? Well think about if there's any imperfection in that pig or there's any contaminants in the air or whatever that make it inside that tube.

that's a pretty violent process. um I think that may. There's some things that I've looked at that make me think that that might be part of it and you think manufacturers going to be like yep, we made a mistake in the way we manufacture the product I don't know I mean I I'm not I'm not pointing fingers or blaming but I am asking that question of are we really making sure we're controlling that as well as we could? um I Didn't want to ask another question because I think I think the questions that we've been asking about Atls are all about like the equipment sensors, the mitigation, and the equipment terminal venting. All that.

My bigger concern is leakage inside the structure from the line set which is going to be really, um, it's not, doesn't happen very often. So I think that's why you haven't been thinking about it. but imagine you have a line set that's running through a Um and and one of the questions here was like, well, you can't penetrate roofs, You can't penetrate walls, a lot of that stuff's still in flux. Like there's still a lot of um.

you know, because you have different bodies that, uh, regulate these different things. So you have Ashray and Ahri on one side, on the on the Uh on the AC and Refrigeration side. But then you have like, um, the National Electrical Code? Who's the what's? the Um? NFPA right? Who actually sets those standards And then you have local municipalities? A local authorities have jurisdiction, Ahjs and so that you're getting a lot of different messages. And that was a question that I asked.

um a panel at Ahr and they said they are trying to work to standardize it, but a lot of that stuff isn't standard yet. Um, but imagine you're running a line set through a closet. Sorry back to I'm waxing too much here. Um, wax on wax off? You know? Um, it's say it's running through a small closet and you've got a 5ton unit.

M Um, and that leaks in that closet and the the volume is such that if it all leaks out in that space that you go above the lower flammability limit inside of a structure. That worries me, right? I Don't really care Terminal venting outside I'm not really worried about that that much. That doesn't because they even say like you don't know what you're not worried about I mean for for a technician, that would be the more dangerous part of working with agent? Well, yeah. I Just don't think that that because if you look at the flammability of A2l in comparison to A1s, we've already seen ignition events with oil and terminal venting, right? You've already seen terminals blow out and you get the flame and all that, right? That's not new to us.

I Mean, what's new to it might be like, don't think it's gonna be 10 times more violent. No, it's not like they've actually shown what it's It's like they they've done the Um, Esco and um, kimor have actually shown what it looks like between an A1 and A2l And it's not like like it's not like propane, right? So those of us who have done propane um, because that exists in refrigeration, r290 exists in refrigeration and techs keep thinking that's the same thing and it's not. It's much more. A2 LS are much more like A1s that we've been working with than they are like propane.

But but if you fill up a room with an A2l and then you have an ignition event now, you've actually got to me, that seems like a bigger problem inside someone's house, just the way my brain works. And I'm no scientist on this, but like, if you have, if it's not any more violent, when you have heat compression, irration, and ignition from a compressor terminal venting, then you ain't gonna have to worry about it like combusting in a room. you'd have to have an open flame. Even then it.

No, no, it seems like an outlier event. But imagine say you have we have like see you have a Vrf system that's got like on a big custom home and it's got like a significant amount of refrigerant charge in it and they say no, It's okay because the equipment has mitigation in it, but you're running a line set through this this enclosed area and it's filling up that space above the lower flammability limit. That that to me still seems like a bigger concern. Obviously like they've only because they've already thought about it on the equipment side, right? They've already made changes on the equipment side to reduce those those risks.

I've always wondered though if this sensors, um, mitigation issues are going to be like the 410A where it's like five years they're gone. It's like it's not really because they realize it's not a real issue. it's I just personally I kind of feel fire is kind of different. You think? Yeah, yeah, I just.

but from what I've heard it like you cannot get this stuff to burn, you can with an open flame. Yeah, if you expose it to it just requires more initial ignition energy. uh and then when it does burn, it doesn't burn as and my answer to your specific question would be and my is we've got propane lines running through people's houses with a giant tank. We've got natural gas lines running through people's houses with an endless fuel supply so we're going to worry about a little bit of um, no, that's actually probably the best cuz I've actually said the same thing.

That's my, that's right, right, We should have automatic shut offs on natural gas lines first. First and foremost you would think yeah, yeah, right and and I don't know I Don't think A2l have any odorant though. like I Don't think they have anything in them that allows you to distinguish them. Pretty sure they do.

It's got odorant and it runs through an attic. Yeah, but you're still going to smell it. like like propane. Smell it like.

you walk into you walk into a garage where there's a tiny little pinhole. That's that Bert video where he's like sniffing around the the the gas line. Um, that may not be a bad idea if they can make it where it doesn't damage the equipment. but you're saying you don't think it would, You don't think it would matter.

No. I'm not saying not to put an odor in if you couldn't but I'm saying there could be situations where you just don't have it in a space where people are going to get the odor in. But then would it be enough to be a problem, right? So, but to your point, like it's that's the same thing. We're running gas lines through attics and through walls and all kind of stuff all the time.

Much more volatile, much more, right? Um, unquestionably. Yeah. yeah. So why are we like acting? Why Are we freaking out? Yeah, Which is why.

So that's goes back to my thing. Like these sensors will be gone in like five years because they because they're never be a house exp and they'll do more testing and they'll find out that it's like impossible to get this to actually ignite. Yeah, yeah, maybe we'll see. Okay, good, all right, that was kind of boring anything.

Any questions you guys have, go ahead. just a thought on what you asked because it's going through the home just like have smoke detectors, carbon detectors, and all that. I Think if it does come to an issue, it's going to be something that the industry is going to be more reactive than proactive and it'll be more on the NFA and the electrical fire codes that hey home that have this are G new constructions going to have to have this sensor in the home. So that way if it is a problem which I'm a little bit more on his side of I don't think it's going to be that real of an issue.

but if it does become, it's going to be a reactive sensor that's going to be assigned to the home, not necessarily the equipment. I think yeah, that sounds that sounds right. Yeah, if there is a massive home explosion and right and that's yeah and and then that'll be like okay now now everything changes. Go ahead sir.

Yeah, I would love. The only thing that I really see that really bothers me. it's manufacturers One couple differentes right now we're having to haul R22 still for some old systems, right? we've got R410. Then we're going to have two more refrigerants and then you start looking at recovery tank right? and yeah, yeah, so his in case anybody can't hear on the live stream.

His feedback was like the number of refrigerants is a big concern. recovery tanks having to carry it all that and that's what I I mean that's what I've always said I mean Eric Works in commercial I mean speak to that a little bit Eric Well back toing, um grocery, is you had 20 tanks on your truck? Yeah, you know and that's just going to get more and more Probably on that side. Now we're gonna have three more to add to that. You're gonna be driving tractor trailers pretty soon going be, which would be kind of cool honestly.

Um, but probably not great for the environment either if that's what we're trying to save. Um, so that's something to think about. The good news is too is that it's going to be a little while before you need that. I think it's going to be a few years after the stuff comes out to where you really need to have tanks R32 and 454 on your truck.

you know, um, it was that way 410A it was. You know, several years before you're like, oh I ran across one of these new systems that was leaking. You know, um, to really need to have it. But I'm a a small shop so that could could be debunked if anyone wanted to.

but one thing that I find helpful is just to like keep like some extra recovery tanks in your garage. That way you don't have to keep them all on your truck that way when you put some gas in one, you can put it in the garage and then you can consolidate them later at the shop or wherever. Once you when you say put it in the garage, you mean set it in the garage. not like open the valve in your garage right? Just hey I get I get money for that stuff I mean yeah right, it is.

Actually the economic driver is kind of is kind of helpful to to drive better. Make sure to fill that tank to the minimum amount of pounds to turn it in. so I can get more money. you know? put it in four different tanks instead of just three.

Yeah. Eric puts water in his. yeah, put some water in there. you know, get some extra whatever you happen to have laying around when you change the oil on your car, you just put it right in there.

put a gallon in each. don't never know. Um, somebody else said something you had something you were gonna ask I was more concerned. contractors bypassing those RVs sensors and stuff like Tech a lot of techicians that like to go top and go right have an intermittent detection and Cy all that outdo I think they're going to bypass.

that's open up a liability 100% if they let you bypass them. you know on a communicating system. Yeah to like kill yeah, but a communicating system might be a little tougher. Different? yeah System? Yeah, definitely not.

Yeah, not something that for liability reasons. Even if it isn't your fault, if you've bypassed something, you're still going to get blamed. Remember that Like you know. just remember that that's that's really key.

Um, yeah, it's like in the quality of everything else these days these sensors are going to be. Hopefully not, but probably going off when there is no leak, right? How are we going to deal with that service call with grouchiness and choice words? Probably. Um y yeah, yeah, that would be that would beide. But that's actually probably one of the biggest changes to Um EPA regs that a lot of people aren't talking about is the fact that now there is going to be a leak rate limit in residential and that did not exist before.

Okay, right, you did not because you never went over 50 pounds and I think it's still like it's like systems over 20 or 10 I don't remember the number I should know that but I don't Um I really have a hard time staying interested reading regulations. It's kind of boring, especially when they change like every three hours. But but that is that is GNA be different because I I was the one who was always saying like when when guys are using that as a way to sell equipment. oh I'm sorry ma'am I can't add any more refrigerant to your system.

It's like that's not true I mean it's fine if you don't want to do it. but don't lie, you know, don't make, don't make up a regulation that doesn't exist. But now that is changing as part of the new um, whatever it's called sounds like it won't be super applicable. Great Uh, it's a contractor but so I call you out on Monday and I call Joe out on Tuesday Now you just exposed the whole strategy to get around it.

Thanks! Eric I'm just saying like yeah, right? No, No, you're right. You're right. Yeah, yeah. so the contractor is supposed to keep records now of when they add refrigerant on a residential call Yes, with the new under the new standard which it begins next year, Is this going to retroactively apply to like 410A and 22? or is it just going to be the A2 LS that are under that? Well, no, it would definitely be it would H old stuff would be worse I Mean this is about yeah, right? right? Disagree.

I'm kind of making this up as I go along. That's my understanding. Go ahead. Um, yes.

yes, but it's a it's a weak yes because I we're definitely supposed to log it equipment that we, uh, that we decommission. So when we remove equipment from service, we are supposed to keep a log in residential. Um, if it is under 50 pounds, then recharge does not require any sort of a log currently. Um, under 50 pounds over 50 pounds? Yes, um, and then the leak rate requirements come in.

But that's where I'm saying now. that is changing too. So it's gonna. uh, refrigerant logging is going to become a much bigger business on a compliance side and again, up to this point.

This is the thing that I I Probably shouldn't say it out loud, but I mean there's been zero enforcement. so there's regulations, but nobody's The only people who ever get hit are like big corporations like Grocery Stores um the EPA will go. come against them but regular technicians, regular contractors that just doesn't happen. it's not.

and people talk about I'm gonna turn you in. It's like, well, okay, whatever I mean makes en well of course right I mean and that's the whole thing right? There's yeah. obviously if you make a you make an enemy with the EPA or a regulator or government official Yeah, probably. but why would you do that? even you do that? Joe I don't wouldn't but I always tell people when they say that too.

it's like just go. As far as I know, a couple years ago, no one has ever actually gotten that, um, reward money, right? the bounty in the history of it. Yeah right. No one's ever actually gotten it and no one's actually ever been charged with it except for I do think there was I read a story about they charged some um Scrappers with that in conjunction with all the theft charges for cutting up a bunch of rooftop.

right? But hit with that charge. but there hasn't been like a contractor who has ever actually been hit with that venting. Yeah, but that's akin to like, um, um shoot, who was the famous mobster who got like put away because of tax evasion? Yeah, Al Capone it's it's kind of akin to that and again, I'm not encouraging like we do. You think it's going to be worse in the future? For that, there's going to be more enforcement.

that's all political like that. depends on administrations and all that stuff we don't know. Um, who knows I'm not and I don't come down either side of this stuff I just talk about what is you know like I'm not I don't make political statements on HBC school I definitely do when I've had a few in me. uh, after dinner with my family, but that's that's my own business.

Had a few Lcro in you, a few extra lro, and uh, that's sparkling water just tickles the tummy. Um, all right so let's talk about um I'm just gonna put you put you on the spot Joe no you're looking at the audience. Does anybody have anything out here? anything you're thinking about I want to get off A2l because I'm sick of talking about it? Well yeah, go ahead. like work Life balance I guess cou persp Cont: large how do you bance God family career I'll let you go first Joe on that one, you should have been here to the first annual Symposium we they had a whole uh is that live stream still that was not recorded? Probably there was a work life balance y um that was.

we did it over there right? We did yeah over at the gym? yeah with my dad. um and that was nice, but it's tough. you know? Are you? especially as a oneman show or a small company where everything kind of like the buck stops with you? Um, obviously you know God comes first. Um, we say that to practice it you know, takes uh, effort? um for sure.

But your motto should definitely be like God family work but in the summer it can probably feel like that's upside down. Um I know a lot of HVAC guys we can get so our self identity is so into our businesses like growing it like and you've met people like that I'm sure where you can just tell like that is everything to them. Um I you know, just try to recognize that. Try to say at the end of my life it is not going to matter how many um HVAC technicians I had how big my company was, how many install? none of that's going to matter.

So just try to remember that. Stay focused on really Honestly what makes you happy? There's no, um, you know personally I don't think that there's ever going to be a place where you're like completely content with the size of your business. If you want to grow it, you're always going to want to grow maybe a little more because that's just Unfortunately The Human Condition is that we're never satisfied. So um I would just really try to be satisfied with wherever you you know, like me my speaking for for myself I Am definitely happier in front of a piece of equipment than in an office like managing people.

So someone like that should probably not have great ideas to grow like a Kalos um company because it's not really going to make you that you know any more fulfilled. Um, so family, you know God Family. Those are the things that will ultimately fulfill You will be there in your time. a need you know not HVAC and not you know, customers and stuff like that.

But yeah, we have, um, times where it may feel like you know families kind of taking a backseat in. June July August September Um, you know that's kind of. You know that's our industry, but at the same time just kind of try to make that time up with them. Um, in the offseason, playing some vacations, let them know hey, we're working hard for this.

We're going to take a nice vacation Christmas You know, whatever. um, and stuff like that. So yeah, you got to make hay when the sun shines. Yeah, and also just all that stuff is a team effort when you have a family.

So obviously intrinsic in saying that that you are caring about your family means you have one. And um, having really good communication and good communication does not mean it's Conflict Free communication I Think a lot of people are looking for life to be easy and comfortable. Um, that's not the life we chose. We're we're here to make other people comfortable, not us, right? Um, and that means that you know the people who are in your life.

Uh, they have to be part of the the reality part of the conversation about the and that's true of almost any job like that. there's going to be busy Seasons There's going to be hard times, there's gonna be stressful times. Um, and making that Leilani uses the the terms holistic and sustainable a lot. Those are kind of.

um, those are kind of buzzwords, but they actually do. That's a key to a lot of this is that um, don't do something in part that's going to damage the whole and also don't do things that cannot be sustained and sometimes that like if you look at a summer where it's like man I just worked 70 hours. That's not sustainable. but yeah.

but. but. but if it's only for a couple months then maybe that is sustainable. And that's where having that conversation with the people in your life and saying hey, is this sustainable for us or are we just feeling a little upset and impatient right now just because right now it's uncomfortable.

Um I Definitely do not encourage people to, uh, avoid discomfort. Um, because that's going to, that's not going to lead to growth. Um, that's true of anything, right? I'm you're adjusting your diet or exercising or growing a business or whatever you choose to do Sports whatever. Um, we don't want to teach our kids and the people in our lives that the goal here is just for everything to be perfectly smooth Waters because that's not.

that's not realistic, right? And I think about that a lot with my kids and and um, my parents are very good at this. um, having some struggle, uh, baked into the system. uh, baked into that sustainable holistic system is a really good thing. Um, but that doesn't mean that.

uh I don't make myself emotionally available that I'm so frustrated with work that I come home and kick the dog and throw the cat you know, like that kind of stuff. If I if I'm gonna do that stuff I do it for fun. You know, not because I'm angry. that's a joke I don't do I don't do that.

Don't call. Don't call Peta on me. Um, no. like you have to function out of um out of Health right? Mental health, Spiritual health, Emotional health? Uh and if you're allowing your work uh or any choice that you make to make you unhealthy.

uh, that's a problem, but that would be like a lot of what I hear people saying is like man I can't work out because that this is like really rough on me. It's like yeah, when you're done working out, you feel sore, right? and that's but that's the good kind, right? Uh, we're lifting a compressor with your back, not your legs. That's the the bad kind, you know. And and that's what.

That's true in a lot of different areas that metaphor applies. Um, so am I doing this hard thing because I'm growing and I'm building something or am I doing this hard thing. Uh, and it's hurting me and it's hurting people I Love and you have to be willing to do that. And like.

The women's panel that we just had was just one of the best panels I've ever heard. and the thing I took away from it more than anything else is just ask. like be persistent in asking and then listening. So if it's your, if it's your wife or your husband or your kid, just talk to them about it.

Hey, is this is this okay? Uh, this year at the Symposium this is a funny thing. Last year my teenagers all pitched a fit. Um, about us affecting their lives and blah blah blah blah blah and their patterns and all this stuff. and we're terrible parents and all we care about is ourselves and our friends.

Um, this year I we actually talked to them beforeand and said hey, we care about all these people. This is something that is. It's hard for all of us to some degree it's stretching. We're all tired, we're all cranky.

You guys aren't going to get to hang out with your friends this week because you're helping out with the younger kids and all that. But can you? can you like help us with this? Can you take this seriously with us? And man, their attitude totally changed and I think that's and they've been amazing this whole time. Really, just great. Um, and that's I think fundamental to a lot of these questions is like it's not just us.

It's not. how can I do this. it's how can we do this. Uh, and if it's not healthy for the we, then we need to make a change.

But even then it doesn't always need to be a wholesale change. Sometimes it's just a little tweak, just a little adjustment that can change everything. Maybe it's hey, we're g to make time for a vacation from my wife and I it's every week we go on a date now. Um, we used to not be able to do that and now we can.

and even there's that hour that we get away with each other. Makes a huge difference. Um, and sometimes that's enough. You know we're not.

None of us are going to end up probably here. None of us are going to end up on a beach in Bali Uh, you know, just drinking margaritas all day and who would want to anyway, right? That's not a that's not a worthwhile life from my perspective I mean some people would want to I Guess it kind of sounds nice, but know, maybe for a week, right? Maybe for a week? Yeah, it's the most common question that we get. And and we're We're running out of time I Have to be at a panel in nine minutes. So Eric you have any thoughts on that? This is the stuff people like to hear about a lot.

so it's where we ended up. Yeah, I mean it's uh. one thing to add to that is when you're in those times when it is hard because the work is seeming to take the priority. it's really easy to forget the other times when you you know had time to do more meaningful stuff.

So just try to remember when you're when you're at those times that it's temporary and make sure that they are like temporary. You don't want to be doing like you said, 70 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, right? Working every day? That's no good. I Mean it's okay to do it every once in a while. but make sure that you take the time when you can to focus on what's important.

Yeah, corn didn't grow overnight. Yeah, that's good. Um, yeah, it's it's important to I Don't know anybody here. ever get emotional.

You ever get emotional Joe You don't seem very emotional. Yeah, you? yeah? um I get a couple people I'm a very emotional person. Um, and I wear my heart on my sleeve to an extent that my wife really wishes I probably didn't at times. Um, and that's and I understand that.

Um, but but being able to. my dad and I talk about this a lot. My dad was a was an athlete in college. he's a very emotional driven person and um, just realizing that all of the this too shall pass.

you know? uh but just make sure it does right. Like kind of like what Eric said. Um, if it's something that where you're feeling strong emotions, uh then give yourself time to kind of get a way to process it. People handle that stuff differently for some people going fishing or Motocross not anymore, probably you know.

but um, whatever it is. Um, you know, give yourself some time to to do some of those things to allow yourself to, to, um, get some perspective again. Um, but I think a lot of people in the trades have I kind of what? I think you were saying like identifying this is who I am. That's a slippery slope.

You just have to be careful with that like it is a part of who you are and you know it could be a lonely uh place to be as a business owner? Yeah, you know you're trying to keep everything everybody happy and everything running and you know you don't have that one person that you can just turn to. Yeah ask a lot of times. Yeah, he was talking about the loneliness of being a business owner. not everybody here obviously as business owners a lot of TCH but it's lonely for text too.

It's lonely. It can be lonely for all of us and that's where finding some Community I'm reaching out Sometimes that can make all the difference I have a group of people and it changes. It's not always the same people uh but you can just call me like hey, just I just need to talk to somebody and being honest that that's what it is. and um and I've even learned that with with people who I'm close to I'm like hey I'm just talking.

this is not represent reality. Okay I'm talking based on my emotions right now because it's because I need to do that. But just realize I'm not gonna go do anything crazy. you know, like I'm not gonna go get you know, a ponytail and a tattoo and and a mistress.

you know, like that's not GNA happen. but right now I'm just a little I'm feeling kind of crazy so just hang with me here and learning how to do that with yourself too. And the people that you love is is really big. um and and PE most people if they love you and trust me, people in your life they do.

even if they don't act that way all the time, um, they're gonna really respect that. If you can be a little more clear about where you're at, um, recognizing that you know it's sometimes it's just emotions. So anyway, that got uh that got deep. anything you want to finish with Joe this is that was much deeper than I expected could uh yeah, could have gone I'm kind of like you know I kind of like yeah I do probably make decisions based on emotions more than I should.

but like I try to keep those like bottled inside me. Oh, that's he. Yeah, just push them down, just stomp those bad boys. Yeah, but that's you know.

Yeah, no, it's it's something that I've definitely grown in. Um You can call me about it Joe We'll talk, We'll talk I May I may have to now. no it's it's h it's good to see you guys. Uh love you guys.

You guys are amazing and it's good to good to get our once a year talking. So I got to take off but um good stuff. Yeah thank you all than you.