New A2L refrigerants are hitting the market with new products coming out. With the phase-out of 410-A refrigerant, should we be concerned with any of these A2L refrigerants being added to HVAC systems? In this video, Joshua goes through the ratings on these refrigerants which include the new R-32 and 454-B refrigerants. He also goes through how concerned you should be based on the flammability and toxicity ratings.
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The EPA needs to stop bouncing around so many refrigerants and just simply stay with R410A. It's becoming ridiculous. Are you in Ottawa ?
I hope they go R32. It is not a blend and is more efficient at carrying heat then 410A. It is used in other counties now and even window AC units are using it.
Trane going with R-454B or R-466A?
Worst burn I've ever seen was from R22. It obviously wasn't the refrigerant that ignited, but rather the mineral oil that it carried. Created a blow torch. The fire department affectionately calls the end result a "crispy critter". No – he didn't make it to the hospital.
Everything is flammable at some temperature point(Yes, even water) but I would like to know what is the benefit to moving to r-32 vs r-410.
I don't like it at all. What happens if the evaporator coil starts leaking when the heat is on? My gas furnace is sitting right next to my gas water heater.
It's about money, but it's also about unelected activists in the driver's seat. They'll fall for new and shiny ideas, and force the consequences onto the rest of us. Service area Kanata??
It's my opinion that the EPA simply wants job security and its fairly obvious that when they change refrigerants, those on the inside of the changes likely gear up to profit with each gas change. So, it does sound like its all about money all while they call it about environmental reasons. Just like our own Government when they come up with these "Save the USA" bills in congress, they call them one thing on page one of the bill but as you continue to read page two and onward, there are tons of actions in the bill that have nothing to do with saving the USA.
Society should be most concerned about function and cost at their levels because only the EPA is concerned about is CO, no matter the cost to society. Just look at where they are heading with all electric for the future due to CO reasons. Well, all electric is in fact more expensive to the end user, rechargeable batteries to landscape industry, garden equipment will be either 120v or rechargeable batteries and their initial costs are higher than fuel run. Then, the EPA or at least CARB are trying to sell/regulate on us heat pumps vs. natural gas heating systems. I don't see running a compressor in the winter as being equal to gas in operational costs. In fact, electric heating is less effective than the same unit of natural gas plus, the cost of electricity is much higher than gas, especially in California, New York etc. A heat pump vs. natural gas would likely cost folks 3 to 4 times more in utility bills depending on power rates and region of location. Plus, heat pumps fail on efficiency in 80+ hot days and 30 or below cold nights which means even more wasted power consumption.
All of the changes will not carry much value to the customer or end user. There will be higher initial costs to replace older equipment likely, modifications to existing structures to accept newer systems will drive up install costs, operational costs will likely increase if rates remain the same (which they won't, they will increase) and overall maintenance will likely increase. From the end user view, it seems highly 3rd world expensive to continue to have what has been around for a decade in HVAC.
Flammability doesn't seem to be an issue unless there's a sudden large leak at the right time which isn't likely. HVAC will get training so they should be okay with handling new gas.
My AC just went out this week. Can I get equipment now that is R-32? Old AC was R22 so fixing and refilling that is close to a quarter of the cost of a new system by one quote I got for a new one.
As professional as you can be can NEVER account for deterioration or manufacturing defects/failures.
Every tech has experienced the alu/cu connection failure.
The eventual goal is to eliminate air conditioning entirely. They won't say it, but that is what the regulations are bringing about. Are you in Orleans ?
Lol this is like blu ray vs hd dvd format wars back in 2006 for refrigerants now. lol
On flammability, R290 (propane} is used in refrigerators now. Even when working on it it's safe if you follow the guidelines. As far as GWP, it's BS. When patents run out they need new refrigerants to make the big bucks. They said R12 was killing ozone, now 30 years after it was phased out nothing has changed with the ozone so they changed the talking point.
I am OK with mildly flammable refrigerants. The risk compared with all the other flammable chemicals found in the house doesn’t cause alarm with me.
HFCs were "temporary" (for the most part) when they were brought out decades ago. A2L refrigerants have been in cars for up to 5 years now. Also, isn't R-410A half R-32? Europe and Japan have been using A2Ls for some time now. What this is going to do, I hope, is force our industry to follow better installation and maintenance standards. So, please lower the hype on the flammability. As I tell my students, don't say the F word out loud around the customer. We will be okay, just costs will go up, a lot.
Great video, Josh. Along the lines of revenue generation, I have to believe there is a 'planned obsolescence' component at play here. After investing ~$16k into a 5-ton Trane XV20i inverter system in 2019 here in the desert southwest (replacing a 12-year old 13-seer Carrier), I really hope no leaks develop in the next 8-10 years. I can only imagine how much 410A will be going for by then…
If we won’t 20 years behind everyone else it wouldn’t be a problem, 410 is on a phase down now out. Europe and India been using r32 for 10 15 years now. Help get rid of the hacks in this trade and hopefully make the shitty techs want to do better. But it’s just another selling point in residential, hey r410 is illegal and you need a new system. Sadly most of these companies push that.
PhD Chemist here
Dupont owns the patents for R-454B, and you can probably guess where the push for that came from. (The same spinoff for the company that was dumping Toxic Teflon byproducts into the ground). It's awful stuff, though.
R-32 (difluoromethane) is already in use in Japan, etc. It's also present in some(?) Fire Extinguishers
If I had to pick one: R-32.
Great video thank you for all the great information sir keep them videos coming, questions do tech technicians need to get recertify to work with this new refrigerant
Its currently about the GWP. For R12 and R22, it was about the severe stratospheric ozone depletion they were causing. The ozone depletion was linked to millions of skin cancers in humans and the precipitous decline of amphibians and other water surface life.
What no more puron 😂😂😂😂😂
All about the money, and that's the hope… Nailed it!
Notice how short-sighted this gwp rating is – only considering the effect of the gas liberated into the environment (where it doesn't belong and little resides). What about the energy that goes into the manufacture, is that all the same for all refrigerants? And what about the energy efficiency of the refrigerants themselves? We already know there's variation there. Wondering why those factors aren't factored into the gwp… back to opening observation. Service area Barrhaven??
I thought one of the main criteria of a refrigerant was not to be flammable? Now we are putting them in our automobiles and the home? I agree it is about money… Also not all former HVAC or inlaws are miscreants but there is a lot of cretins out there that tarnish the field.
As homes explode I think it will be worse for the environment. Kidding aside, I think you need to study what is actually the refrigerants are made of to better understand what you are talking about.